Project ORRL - dev

[Epsilon]

Sorry to get off-topic (on-topic, actually) here kids, but just a note for ORRL flight recordings. It seems that the built-in flight recorder doesn't have quite enough resolution to record the gates being hit correctly. xD

http://www.etmoonshade.net/Eppy-ORRL2.zip is a proof-of-concept replay for my 186.09s run on GR-WIN1 (the current record, AFAIK) - problem is, the gear doesn't register as going up, so I get a hull breach right out of the gate. As long as you can trust that I didn't manage to do the flight with a hull breach and toasted crew, and that I actually -did- hit CP5 on target, the end result is a run of about 186.60 seconds. I can't remember the actual time, but it's a good, fast run all the same.

Edit:
From the Orbiter manual:

position and velocity (*.pos). At the moment, these data are recorded relative to the reference
planet, either in a non-rotating reference system (ecliptic and equinox of J2000),
or a rotating equatorial reference system. As a result, trajectories are recorded in an absolute
time frame. Samples are written in regular intervals (currently 4 seconds) or if the
velocity vector rotates by more than 5 degrees.

I get the feeling that this entry in particular (page 83 of Orbiter.pdf) is the specific problem. There may be a problem on the time trials -anyway- with a recording, but the problem is going to be on launch and landing, with the 100m/s speed limit at the gates. If your velocity doesn't change enough, you obviously don't hit the gate.

The reason that the effect is multiplied in the gate races is the presence of multiple gates. Instead of just a chance that your velocity wasn't recorded as low enough on takeoff and wasn't recorded as low enough on landing, there's a chance that it wasn't recording low enough on takeoff, CP2, CP3, etc. Also, obviously, it only happens on recordings, so this won't affect the live multiplayer aspect of things at all.

 

[wehaveaproblem]

Oh interesting find, Eps, and a bit of a bummer... But hopefully some of the new additions to the mfd will also help eliminate ways to cheat the final screen. So I'm hoping a screen shot will suffice... we shall have to see. I'm also guessing this produced the same problem for the TT races? or is the effect less severe there?

Scarecrow. The answer to your question is essentially yes. however there is no paint kit for the XR2, I had to rip the dds's directly (with coolhands permission). But once I finalise things and once the release is ready I will include the ORRL skins, and potentially could include a paint kit... we will see.
However, I think that the skins should work on OMP, providing that all players have all skins installed. Which may cause problems for custom skins outside those included in the package. I shall have to talk to face about this.

 

[Coolhand]

If you check orbit hangar you'll see that there's a psd with an ambient occlusion and wires that i put up a couple of days ago so that should help you make new skins.

 

[Kaito]

However, I think that the skins should work on OMP, providing that all players have all skins installed. Which may cause problems for custom skins outside those included in the package. I shall have to talk to face about this.

Just do what other games do: If you don't have a skin that someone else has, you just see the "Default" one.
Or, have an "auto-download" from the server. All skins and stuff used will be downloaded to your computer

 

[wehaveaproblem]

Nice one Coolhand, cheers mate!

And yeah, Kaito, that theory is sound. It's whether Face can incorporate it easily into OMP is the question.

 

[wehaveaproblem]

UPDATE: Today I recieved an email via my blog host saying that the official Rocket Racing League has filed a complaint against me for breech of registered trademark! Therefore, it has been removed from my blog for the time being until I get to the bottom of it. This will also mean that, most likely, the project name will change. Although dev for it has gone quiet, it is not dead. So watch this space.

 

[Face]

UPDATE: Today I recieved an email via my blog host saying that the official Rocket Racing League has filed a complaint against me for breech of registered trademark! Therefore, it has been removed from my blog for the time being until I get to the bottom of it. This will also mean that, most likely, the project name will change. Although dev for it has gone quiet, it is not dead. So watch this space.

Brave new world.... I'd recommend to just rename it to ORRL (Orbiter Racing Rocket Land, if anyone asks). Seriously... law is becoming a kind of joke these days, especially regarding information technology.

I hope you're not getting into troubles due to this non-profit private project. I guess they just saw your professionally done website and thought WIA to be real :lol:.

cheers,
Face

 

[James.Denholm]

Holy smokes...

 

[Donamy]

Why not just call it "Orbiter Rocket Racing Project" ?

 

[Woo482]

why don't you just contact the official Rocket Racing League asking for permission to use the name in a addon for a game ?

 

[wehaveaproblem]

Cheers guys, and yeah it does seem a little OTT to me. I read the lawyers cease and decist letter today... deadlinetastic lol.

Anyway, name is no biggy to change, although I will miss my back-to-back R rocket on the logo. I am tempted to change it to Orbiter Rocketeer Racing league, just to see if I can get away with it, but prolly best just to drop the 'Rocket'. Don't need a legal team on my arse! Plus the wordpress host is being very civil, reasonable and understanding about the whole thing, so they don't deserve the grief either imho.

So, it will be offline on the blog for a while until I straighten it out.

Face: I know, how dare I profiteer from an open source free collaboration of a virtual thing! Lucky they caught me...

 

[Hielor]

Cheers guys, and yeah it does seem a little OTT to me. I read the lawyers cease and decist letter today... deadlinetastic lol.

Anyway, name is no biggy to change, although I will miss my back-to-back R rocket on the logo. I am tempted to change it to Orbiter Rocketeer Racing league, just to see if I can get away with it, but prolly best just to drop the 'Rocket'. Don't need a legal team on my arse! Plus the wordpress host is being very civil, reasonable and understanding about the whole thing, so they don't deserve the grief either imho.

So, it will be offline on the blog for a while until I straighten it out.

Face: I know, how dare I profiteer from an open source free collaboration of a virtual thing! Lucky they caught me...

What about just "Orbiter Racing League?"

Is their issue with the full use of "Rocket Racing League"? If so, you could get around that by changing the "League" to something else. What about:
Orbiter Rocket Racing Club
Orbiter Rocket Racing Alliance
Orbiter Rocket Racing Circuit
Orbiter Rocket Racing Society

 

[wehaveaproblem]

Yeah it's just the combination that is the trouble, regardless of the O or Orbiter at the front.

For now I am just calling it the Orbiter Racing Project. They have only complained about my blog, not this forum, so it's only my blog that needs to change for now really anyway. We can keep calling it the ORRL here, until a time when it makes sense to change it.

 

[James.Denholm]

They have only complained about my blog, not this forum...

The Probe has kept them away.

It's rather stupid, though, isn't it? I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure that not many people would have linked ORRL and the Rocket Racing League at all.

 

[tblaxland]

how dare I profiteer from an open source free collaboration of a virtual thing! Lucky they caught me...

It is not about profiteering, it is about trademark protection. See, if a trademark infringement occurs and the trademark owner does not take action, they risk having their trademark registration revoked through the principle of "non-use". This especially true of a trademark like Rocket Racing League which does not yet have significant regular use in the marketplace. In addition, they probably know very little about your project and whether or not it is, or has the potential to, make profit from their trademark. Furthermore, they have no obligation, or commercial interest, in spending time finding out about it.

I hope that helps to demonstrate the view from the other side of the fence...

 

[agentgonzo]

Have you tried talking to the RRL to ask them to let you use it? Given that your blog is written from the perspective of someone 'inside the orbiter world' (ie, talking about contracts, base layouts at Wideawake International etc) they may have just had this turn up on a search and tossed out a C&D letter without much thought. If you contact them, say that it's just a game, it's all virtual and not-for-profit, they may allow you to keep the ORRL name and logo. Just a thought

 

[Face]

Emphasis by me.

It is not about profiteering, it is about trademark protection. See, if a trademark infringement occurs and the trademark owner does not take action, they risk having their trademark registration revoked through the principle of "non-use". This especially true of a trademark like Rocket Racing League which does not yet have significant regular use in the marketplace. In addition, they probably know very little about your project and whether or not it is, or has the potential to, make profit from their trademark. Furthermore, they have no obligation, or commercial interest, in spending time finding out about it.

Have you tried talking to the RRL to ask them to let you use it? Given that your blog is written from the perspective of someone 'inside the orbiter world' (ie, talking about contracts, base layouts at Wideawake International etc) they may have just had this turn up on a search and tossed out a C&D letter without much thought. If you contact them, say that it's just a game, it's all virtual and not-for-profit, they may allow you to keep the ORRL name and logo. Just a thought

IMHO, this is all about making money.
It is a desperate attempt of lawyers to make money out of the internet and some disputable laws - that are not the same all over the world, anyway (and for a very good reason).
Contacting them won't help, I'm sure. You know why? Because the lawyer sending out the C&D letter wants some 100 bucks (or even more) for writing it up. Of course it was a template made in Word, but someone needs to put in the name and the address, have to sign it... and the investigation needs time and money, too.
In addition, tblaxland mentioned a very sad fact... they have to take legal actions agains you in order to not loose investment or get even sued themselfs. Regardless of your intentions to make profit from their IP. This got more and more perverted over years...

If WHAP doesn't have a really good assurance, he'd be better done with changing the name and not messing with it further on.

It is sad but true, that current laws encourage the "sue on sight" mentality. Or was it "shoot first, then ask"? Where was that from again?... ah yes... wild, wild West...

keep up the good work WHAP, don't let them disencourage you...
Face

 

[agentgonzo]

IMHO, this is all about making money.

At first glance, I disagree. If it were about making money, they wouldn't have issued a C&D, they'd have gone straight to suing WHAP. What tblaxland said about trademark protection is totally correct and has happened in many many cases, so I'm inclined to think that's what's going on.

If they continue this approach after learning more about what WHAP is trying to do, then I may change my mind and agree with you, but for the moment I think a short dialog with them is worth it. If it fails, then fine, we've lost nothing and WHAP can change the name anyway.

 

[tblaxland]

IMHO, this is all about making money.
It is a desperate attempt of lawyers to make money out of the internet and some disputable laws - that are not the same all over the world, anyway (and for a very good reason).
[snip]...they have to take legal actions agains you in order to not loose investment or get even sued themselfs. Regardless of your intentions to make profit from their IP. This got more and more perverted over years...

You are implying that lawyers invented the laws to serve themselves. Whilst there may be an element of that, I can tell you that brand quality and brand loyalty are very important to the profitability* of any company that I have worked for and I expect it is the same for just about any business. Trademarks are a very important part of raising and maintaining the brand. (We could argue about the benefits or otherwise of capitalism, but that would be getting too far OT, I think.)

Free software projects have registered trademarks too (Joomla comes to mind). Brand loyalty is also important to them.

* EDIT: Profiteering is different to making a profit. I'm against the former, but the latter is OK, IMHO. I haven't seen any profiteering in this case, yet.

 

[Face]

You are implying that lawyers invented the laws to serve themselves.

How do you come to this conclusion? I wrote about them trying to make money out of some disputable laws. Not that there is some conspiracy or the like.

At least in Germany and Austria, they send you C&D letters right together with the costs of their lawyers. Some have indeed specialized on C&D letters only for income. Very disgusting. Especially because they threaten you with further costs just to keep you shut and pay. It is called "kostenpflichtige Abmahnung" in Germany and "Unterlassungsaufforderung" in Austria, and it should be the german translation of "cease-and-desist letter". I'm not sure if it is the same technically, though, but I'm sure the intention is the same and - this is my point here - it includes money transfer.

Of course trademarks were an important instrument to secure markets in the past, but since the beginning of commercialized internet it showed more and more misuse of it - by "brand-labeling" simply... well... nothing. No product, no service, no real content. Just a trademark. Of course it is legal to do that...
Sometimes even standard terms get trademarked. Just take a look at RRLs homepage... they got the trademark for "Rocket Racer". Oh, and the abbreviation RRL is a not-yet-registered (TM sign).
I'm glad "race" is not taken yet...

Don't get me wrong here, I understand and respect IP laws. But the applying of those traditional instruments to new medias like the internet perverts justice more than it enforces it. Yeah, I know law isn't necessarily justice, but it should at least try to come as close as possible, not as profitable as possible.

If they continue this approach after learning more about what WHAP is trying to do, then I may change my mind and agree with you, but for the moment I think a short dialog with them is worth it. If it fails, then fine, we've lost nothing and WHAP can change the name anyway.

* EDIT: Profiteering is different to making a profit. I'm against the former, but the latter is OK, IMHO. I haven't seen any profiteering in this case, yet.

Good points. I just hope the C&D letter itself doesn't raise costs for WHAP already (as it would be the case with a "kostenpflichtige Abmahnung" in Germany), otherwise your arguments ("we've lost nothing", "haven't seen any profiteering") would fail. OFC I mean serious costs just for the letter - cleaning out the mail box and changing the webpage doesn't count.

Would be interesting to know... WHAP, can you please keep us (at least the social group) informed about the issue? As long as it doesn't get you into more trouble, that is...

regards,
Face