Question Rwarp and flying in atmo

[gattispilot]

Something like the old RTF Stargates but with targeting. So your ship becomes a stargate and be able to say warp to Mars in a couple of minutes. In the old RTF stargates you could place the stargates where you wanted. But if you flew into a stargate at 10m/s ship speed. Then you exited at 10m/s.

 

[Buck Rogers]

This conversation seems to be going nowhere FAST. :lol: I can only emphasize what Face has already said: speed=10m/s does not exist; there is only speed relative to something, when we say we are driving a car at 100 kph its actually an abbr. for 100 kph Ground Speed, which means relative to the Earths surface.
Probably the most universal system of measurement would be from the center of the universe (not taking into account other dimensions and such stuff, where speed probably isn't relevant anymore anyway!) For practical purposes the next main gravitational source should suffice.
What you actually want is not only a "magical teleport device" but also a "nullify all previously inherited velocity and set current speed relative to new main gravitational source to ... what 0?" Not good! Then your falling very FAST toward something. Something like that happened to me playing around with the Battlestar Galactica mod and jumping between stars, even with its fantasy huge engines and fuel supply it took all the fuel (far more than the jump itself!) just to get a half stable orbit (around something)! I can only say don't ignore relative speeds!
There are some relatively good warp/jump mods already, the FTL drive from BG works pretty well to, so I don't really see the point. If this was some fantasy game I'd say go for it and don't forget lots of BLING BLING!
Otherwise if you don't like Newtonian physics don't play Orbiter, I also don't really see any challenge in ScnEd ing around the universe!
One of those mods did nullify/adjust the relative speed, are you sure that one of those doesn't actually do what you want?

On the theoretical side any jump (from and back to normal space/time) cannot account for relative speed, and probably is incredibly impractical because of that! Warping, on the other hand, is an actual displacement in space/time, so one could adjust the velocity vector, but using it anywhere except deep, deep space might rip apart a planet or even a whole star system...

 

[Urwumpe]

I wonder how you could travel on a planet using this or make a jump gate thing for Orbiter2010. I looked at different hyperdrive codes. Most of them just jump to x amount in the z direction. But your speed when stopped is FAST.

Maybe something like you are on the Earth at White sands and now to want to get to somewhere else on the Earth is a quick amount of time. So you pick a base and press a key and you get move there like the scenario editor.

What about simply setting the position of the vessel? The calculated acceleration would be absurd, but who had forgotten to include worm holes and inertia dampers into Orbiter. Blame martins.

 

[gattispilot]

Oh. On the speed I guess what ever it is relative to the ship. What the HUD reads.

I would say more like a jump. So you are at White Sands and want to get to the cape in Florida. You select the base and press a key the jump/hyperdrive engages and a couple of minutes you arrive BUt at the same speed you started.

 

[Face]

Oh. On the speed I guess what ever it is relative to the ship. What the HUD reads.

Which one do you mean? The ground speed or the air speed? Please accept the fact that it is different in different frames of reference. Without speaking about a frame of reference, you can't speak about a magnitude or even direction of speed. Either you define what it is, or you let the user choose, for both departure and destination.

I would say more like a jump. So you are at White Sands and want to get to the cape in Florida. You select the base and press a key the jump/hyperdrive engages and a couple of minutes you arrive BUt at the same speed you started.

Your ideas here are based on a fallacy: you think that speed is a property inherent to a single object, when in reality AND in Orbiter, it is a measurement between 2 objects. Since it is by no means clear WHAT second object should be used for this measurement at any given point in time, most implementations chose to use the biggest one possible in Orbiter: the ecliptic frame of reference of the solar system. And by that frame of reference, in most warp/jump implementations, the vessel HAS the same speed it started with.

Your last sentence above is not making any sense without a clear definition of the frame(s) of reference first.

 

[Buck Rogers]

Its all in Scn Ed. To paraphrase question:
Get from point A to point B on a planetary surface with relatively :lol: the same orientation etc.
Ignoring all physics, write a script/code that reads your current Alt., Heading, Gspeed, calculates the state vectors etc. for these values at new Long and Lat. Press button, instant jump!; no need for transit time! Alternatively do this with a few clicks (or more!) in Scn Ed. Moving stationary location is very simple in Scn Ed, and possibly the most realistic!?

 

[statickid]

How about creating an infinite improbability drive? so you can activate it and appear somewhere else randomly in the solar system?

Or... instead of making it totally random, appear some where within a large sphere of the target body, but not under the surface of the target

 

[Face]

How about creating an infinite improbability drive?

Good idea. Do you have the mesh of a whale and a flower pot handy?

 

[Urwumpe]

Good idea. Do you have the mesh of a whale and a flower pot handy?

Don't you think this will get a bit probable?

 

[Face]

Don't you think this will get a bit probable?

Hey, it would be just a simulation, not the real thing.

 

[Urwumpe]

Hey, it would be just a simulation, not the real thing.

Sure, but thats just 2 bit fidelity, is that really enough accuracy to model a inprobability drive well? After all, we also need to remember to be in every location in the universe at once after reaching full improbability.

Maybe we also need to add some yarn there.

 

[gattispilot]

I don't get the whale and flower pot point?

BUt with the RTF hyper drive it basically moves you along the z axis. So if you set the drive to move 100000 meters. When you press the button you are ahead 100000 meters.

But the problem is if you wanted to use it on the earth or any planet. You would skip like a rock and bounce into space because of the curve of the surface.

So is there a way allow a vessel to go thru a planet? Like a worm hole? We think making the ship density of 0 might?

 

[gattispilot]

So how could one simulate a worm hole? So like the star gates rather than go from one stargate to another you make the end star gate your designation.

 

[Izack]

I don't get the whale and flower pot point?

It's a reference to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

BUt with the RTF hyper drive it basically moves you along the z axis. So if you set the drive to move 100000 meters. When you press the button you are ahead 100000 meters.

It also maintains your global (Sun-relative) velocity, so if you are orbiting on one side of a planet, and then jump straight through it to the same altitude on the other side, your orbit would change drastically (depending on where you jumped, you could be falling straight down afterward).

But the problem is if you wanted to use it on the earth or any planet. You would skip like a rock and bounce into space because of the curve of the surface.

So is there a way allow a vessel to go thru a planet? Like a worm hole? We think making the ship density of 0 might?

Density isn't simulated in Orbiter, so I'm not sure what you mean there. If you want to go through a planet, you'll have to calculate the jump distance accordingly. Easy if you want to get from space on one side to space on the other, but requiring higher accuracy if you want to get from one point on the surface to another in a straight line under the surface.

Basically, if you are jumping into the planet, you aren't jumping far enough.

With RWarp, this point is moot, since no 'jumping' happens. You'll just ram into the planet at ludicrous speed.

 

[Face]

So how could one simulate a worm hole? So like the star gates rather than go from one stargate to another you make the end star gate your designation.

In a way, my JumpDriveMFD is doing just that. It simulates a wormhole transition.

Did you understand the point about the velocity relativity yet?

 

[gattispilot]

But it is possible on your jumpdrive to say select a base on the same planet you are on and jump to there?

 

[Face]

But it is possible on your jumpdrive to say select a base on the same planet you are on and jump to there?

You know how my JumpDriveMFD works, so I take it this is a rhetorical question.

Even with huge amounts of suspension of disbelief, I can't imagine a wormhole technique where you simply get a popup window asking you to select some bases on a planet. It sure is harder than that, perhaps coordinates must be plugged in, perhaps some beam focus angle must be set, or some polarization reversed. Hell, even in "Jumper" the character had to focus the target via pictures to get there.
If you want this, you want a scenario editor with fancy effects, not a wormhole simulation.

Did you understand the point about the velocity relativity yet?

Because if so, you must understand that the selection of some location to jump to is NOT the problem, but the frame(s) of reference for the velocity is. Either you let the user select the frame(s) - and make the "device" even more ridiculous - or you automatically select one by definition, and thereby again create situations where the velocity can be observed as excessive.

There you have 2 choices. What should it be?

 

[gattispilot]

The speed is relative to which planet/body, right?

But I think like the stargates you set on at different locations. You give some thrust so to go thru the gate. If you are moving at 10m/s when you exit you are going the same speed.

It a simple sense it like a scenario editor in the sense that you can select what base you would like to travel too. But then you press a key and an effect and after some time based on how far the target was you arrive.

 

[Face]

The speed is relative to which planet/body, right?

But I think like the stargates you set on at different locations. You give some thrust so to go thru the gate. If you are moving at 10m/s when you exit you are going the same speed.

Planet/body is still not enough. I already asked you what it should be.. airspeed or groundspeed? Check your HUD in detail, and you will see that they are not necessarily the same thing.

As I wrote before, speed is a measurement between 2 objects. If you have 2 stargates, you can use those objects as references for the speed of the traveling vessel. If you do not have those objects, like in the wormhole device you suggested, you do not have references.

You always write "at 10m/s", but you always forget to add "relative to XYZ". As long as you don't add this, your descriptions are meaningless. In the stargate case, we could add "relative to the departure/target gate". Without objects to measure relative to, we can't do it that easy. Try to add that part in detail, and we might make a little progress here.

It a simple sense it like a scenario editor in the sense that you can select what base you would like to travel too. But then you press a key and an effect and after some time based on how far the target was you arrive.

Yeah, understood. That's what I think is completely pointless in Orbiter.

 

[gattispilot]

Yeah, understood. That's what I think is completely pointless in Orbiter.

Thanks. for you it might be but for others maybe not.

I used the RTF stargate one at Cape Canaveral and added one at White sands.

But the code for the stargate is lost. But the concept is there. But rather than place a star gate where you want to go. You just dial it in the mfd

I selected the White sands gate. Increase thrust measured in the HUD as Groundspeed on Earth and move into the gate and after leaving Earth visually I arrived at White Sands at about the same speed.