News 'North Korean torpedo' sank South's navy ship - report

[Urwumpe]

I wouldn't buy it out of a completely different Orwelliation: We outside it also only see, what the NK government wants us to see.

 

[Coolhand]

Does anyone know any North Koreans? to like ya know, ask em?

We're all brainwashed and conditioned to think a certain way, right? from birth, TV, Newspapers, standardised pseudo military education systems. even in more liberal countries where we can access the other side of the story easily, where the media is not 100% controlled by one organisation, and internet access is 'free', its the one who shouts the loudest that most people listen to... at least it seems like that so far. Who has a louder voice in NK than their glorious leader?

 

[Artlav]

There seems to be a fair amount of deception in there, at least against tourists.
Here are 5 pages of traveller notes of what NK looks like:
http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-1
The comments are unfortunately in russian, but the images are usually self-explanatory.

 

[Coolhand]

google translate does a fair job of translation.

http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-1/_MG_0366.jpg Is that guy taking a piss into the river?

I Hope its not the same one they make the women wash the clothes in. notice in the cities, theres many people out and about, which is err, strange, no? Given the run down nature of the place, i wonder how populated their cities are or if tourists are shown around tourist town, and not many real people live there.

 

[T.Neo]

Tibet is keeping old territory rather than annexing new one, it's not quite comparable. I could imagine that china would be interested in EMPTY territory, to lower their population problem a bit, but North Korea is already fairly crowded as it is. But as I said, I really don't know wheather china is interested in such an expansion or not. I simply don't have enough information, and don't have the time to get it.

Chinese colonies in Antarctica?

Or Africa? Several African countries are pretty sparse...

We're all brainwashed and conditioned to think a certain way, right?

Perhaps, but not nearly as much as people in countries such as NK.

But, uh, I'll leave now... they might be watching me. :shifty:

 

[Artlav]

Is that guy taking a piss into the river?

He does. Apparently they aren't very shy of it, or so Lebedev says.

notice in the cities, theres many people out and about, which is err, strange, no? Given the run down nature of the place, i wonder how populated their cities are or if tourists are shown around tourist town, and not many real people live there.

Well, there aren't much cars - http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-4/__MG_0005.jpg
So, people are likely to get around on foot - http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-4/_MG_0121.jpg
It's a prison state, not a prison, people have to get around somehow.

Tourists are guided around all the ruins and unpretty stuff, there are wall in strategic places, like around big roads. Still, it looks like a glimpse of fairly normal life.

 

[Coolhand]

Perhaps, but not nearly as much as people in countries such as NK.

Well thats exactly what i mean if you quoted the whole post. i'll re-iterate, over there no one has a bigger voice than kim il and so the effect there is worse... here, we have more voices to listen to, more opinions, for what its worth (speaking about the uk particularly). but most still just go with the flow. We have limited options here, over there they have less.

I'm not saying theres any specific sinister agenda at work in this country btw, though who knows. conditioning is just a part of society, or maybe thats the brainwashing talking, but its certainly easier to pull that kind of **** in a country like nk thats closed off

---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------

He does. Apparently they aren't very shy of it, or so Lebedev says.


Well, there aren't much cars - http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-4/__MG_0005.jpg
So, people are likely to get around on foot - http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-4/_MG_0121.jpg
It's a prison state, not a prison, people have to get around somehow.

Tourists are guided around all the ruins and unpretty stuff, there are wall in strategic places, like around big roads. Still, it looks like a glimpse of fairly normal life.

the place looks like ghost town, in the wide shots from the tower. just doesn't look like there's enough people for the number of buildings... I wouldnt say any of the pics look 'busy' compared to any city i've been to. and look how rundown many of the buildings in the background are... Interesting pics for sure.:thumbup: perhaps the scariest thing is that was what they showed him, so presumably its the best the country has to offer and things perhaps are even worse for your average north korean.

 

[Hielor]

Orwell called it "doublethink", and it works.

I think you mean bellyfeel, not doublethink--the first is to totally and completely accept an idea, regardless of whether or not it's really true. The second is to hold two conflicting beliefs.

But you are absolutely correct.

 

[vonneuman]

Absolutely not. They only show that you assume a relation between NK today and Japan then. And even your claims about Japan are painted with a very broad brush. While the soldiers really had the preference to fight till their death, the civilians had been found thinking completely opposite.

I never said it showed a pattern on the part of the general population. I does however show what the nk government will do.

...their information intake and speech is so controlled, their thoughts so suppressed, that they actually believe what the government feeds them...

That reminds me of this documentary I was watching not that long ago. It had a film crew going to kn to make a documentary about this doctor who was going to nk to do over 1000 eye surgeries to fix a form of blindness that comes from malnutrition. But what the crew spent most of the time doing was making a documentary about nk. It was really interesting because one of the things they mentioned was that the information intake is so controlled that most people in nk don't know that people have been to the moon.
Another thing they talked about was that children in nk are smaller and have lower body weight then children in sk.

 

[Cairan]

From CNN...

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- South Korean President Lee Myung-bak announced Monday his country is suspending trade with North Korea, closing its waters to the North's ships and adopting a newly aggressive military posture after the sinking of a South Korean warship.


"We have always tolerated North Korea's brutality, time and again," Lee said. "We did so because we have always had a genuine longing for peace on the Korean Peninsula. But now things are different."


"North Korea will pay a price corresponding to its provocative acts," he said, according to an English translation of the speech provided by Lee's office. "I will continue to take stern measures to hold the North accountable."

 

[Zachstar]

And the north will likely attack in response. And get the hell on earth it wants so badly...

Sigh...

I guess its up to china now then. The allies will never invade NK without China's help casualties would be extreme and untold millions of civilians would die. If China stays out of it it would be a slugfest They would shell population centers while we scramble to blast the guns and every military target we can.

 

[SiberianTiger]

I guess its up to china now then. The allies will never invade NK without China's help casualties would be extreme and untold millions of civilians would die.

:hail:THE NEW MASTERS OF THE WORLD!

 

[Dambuster]

And the north will likely attack in response. And get the hell on earth it wants so badly...

Sigh...

I guess its up to china now then. The allies will never invade NK without China's help casualties would be extreme and untold millions of civilians would die. If China stays out of it it would be a slugfest They would shell population centers while we scramble to blast the guns and every military target we can.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the war (at least I really hope so!), but never underestimate American power.

 

[SiberianTiger]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64N0F520100525

(Reuters) - North Korean leader Kim Jong-il has told his military it may have to go to war but only if the South attacks first, according to a South Korea-based group that monitors the hermit state.

An earlier report by the South's Yonhap news agency that Kim had told his troops to get ready for combat hit already nervous Seoul financial markets, with the main share index dropping more than three percent. The won also fell sharply.

However, the group of North Korean defectors' website (www.nkis.kr) said the broadcast was made on May 20, before the South announced a series of measures to punish its neighbor for sinking one of its warships in March, killing 46 sailors.

"We do not hope for war but if South Korea, with the U.S. and Japan on its back, tries to attack us, Kim Jong-il has ordered us to finish the task of unification left undone during the ... (Korean) war," it quoted the broadcast as saying.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/world/asia/25korea.html

The strongest statement about North Korea’s culpability came at the United Nations, from Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who was foreign minister in South Korea during a failed effort at what was once called the “Sunshine Policy” of increased interchanges with the North.

“There must be some measures taken,” he said at a news conference, though he stopped short of saying what those measures should be.

“The evidence is quite compelling,” he added, saying he was trying to separate his personal feeling from his duties as secretary general. “There is no controversy. Therefore it is the responsibility of the international community to address this issue properly.”

At the Pentagon, officials announced that the United States and South Korea would hold exercises in coming weeks to practice missions detecting enemy submarines and intercepting cargo vessels suspected of hauling nuclear weapons, bomb-making materials or other prohibited arms.

“Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said one exercise would allow the South Korean and American militaries to practice antisubmarine warfare. South Korean officials said their warship was sunk by a North Korean torpedo.

But the announcement also appeared to be an acknowledgement that South Korea’s submarine detection technologies left something to be desired. The Cheonan crew had no idea that a North Korean submarine was in the region, and even after the sinking, it took weeks to determine what had hit the ship.

A second set of naval exercises will focus on halting banned cargo at sea, and will be held under the auspices of the Proliferation Security Initiative, a multilateral program to intercept the movement of nuclear materials, weapons and components.

http://www.realclearworld.com/news/ap/international/2010/May/25/seoul_resumes_psychological_warfare_with_pyongyang.html

Seoul resumes psychological warfare with Pyongyang

The South's restarting of psychological warfare operations was among measures it announced Monday, along with slashing trade, to punish Pyongyang for the March torpedo strike that sank a navy warship and killed 46 sailors.

South Korea's military resumed radio broadcasts airing Western music, news and comparisons between the South and North Korean political and economic situations late Monday, according to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The military also planned to launch propaganda leaflets Tuesday to inform North Koreans about the ship sinking.

In coming weeks, South Korea also will install dozens of propaganda loudspeakers and towering electronic billboards along the heavily armed land border between the two Koreas to send messages enticing communist soldiers to defect to the South.

The action, which ends a six-year suspension, is expected to draw an angry response from North Korea. The country's military already warned Monday it would fire at any propaganda facilities installed in the Demilitarized Zone.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/24/obama-tells-military-prepare-n-korea-aggression/

WASHINGTON -- The White House said Monday that President Barack Obama "fully supports" the South Korean president and his response to the torpedo attack by North Korea that killed 46 South Korean sailors.

The administration said it endorsed President Lee Myung-bak's demand that "North Korea immediately apologize and punish those responsible for the attack, and, most importantly, stop its belligerent and threatening behavior."

Seoul can continue to count on the full backing of the United States, the White House said.

"U.S. support for South Korea's defense is unequivocal, and the president has directed his military commanders to coordinate closely with their Republic of Korea counterparts to ensure readiness and to deter future aggression," the White House said.

<conspiracy_belief>But still, what if the torpedo evidence IS forged, despite the UN Secretary's conviction of the opposite?</conspiracy_belief>

 

[Cairan]

<conspiracy_belief>But still, what if the torpedo evidence IS forged, despite the UN Secretary's conviction of the opposite?</conspiracy_belief>

For any other country on Earth, I'd be suspicious... But in the case of N. Korea, I think the case is well made that their man in power is missing a few algorithms...

We're talking about a country that endures a regime where it is acceptable to be recluse and live in poverty while international aid aimed at helping the population is redirected to feed the huge standing army it needs to keep things under control...

I have no idea how N. Korea managed to build a nuclear device (I'm not ready to call it a bomb yet with the kind of yield observed), given the conditions they're in, but one thing is sure, Kim Jong Il just loves poking his southern neighbors once in a while to get what he needs to go by for a few more years...

The real conspiracy plot: What if N Korea deliberately torpedoed that ship knowing it would put S Korea and the USA in a tight spot and make them take the current stance, just to get something back in the future... say "We're going to stop using our subs if you give us more money and food (again)"

N Korea has had this pattern for a while now... Provoke, whine about response, trade provocation for aid, repeat when needed...

 

[SiberianTiger]

Probably. Or maybe that sub's commander was simply over-intoxicated with propaganda and trigger-happy, and what's happening is rooted in an accident.

 

[Urwumpe]

Even if a South Korean warship would be entering North Korean Waters (which could easily happen in such waters by small navigation errors), you wouldn't fire a torpedo at it, if normal rules of engagement apply.

The mini submarines are also not for patrolling the borders (they lack the sensors for this), they are completely offensive weapons (Anti-shipping, special operations). So, if mini submarines had been in the waters and one fired a torpedo, the act was hostile and no mistake, but a planned provocation.

Still, North Korea could be using such inadequate weapons for patrolling the waters, leading to such results, since such a submarine could only deal with a warship by attacking it first. Which still means, that the act was hostile.

 

[DanScall]

<conspiracy_belief>But still, what if the torpedo evidence IS forged, despite the UN Secretary's conviction of the opposite?</conspiracy_belief>

We're talking about the country that regularly goes into the South's waters, has provoked numerous naval skirmishes, regularly sends troops across the border, has tried to dig invasion tunnels underneath the DMZ, has sent death squads to try to assassinate South Korean leaders on at least two occasions, is completely run by the barking mad military, and thinks nobody on earth is stupid enough to attack them because they are the one country on earth that is literally insane enough to use their nukes.

With North Korea, you don't need a damn conspiracy. If you wanted to go to war with them, all you would have to do is take any one of the aforementioned as an act of war, and bob's your uncle. They torpedoed the ship because they lost the previous naval skirmish, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I doubt there'll be a war. China these days will not get involved, especially since it was a blatent act of aggression on the part of the NK's, but on the other hand the NK's really are mad enough that they'd consider using their nukes, and I doubt anybody wants to risk that.

 

[SiberianTiger]

On the other hand, I doubt there'll be a war. China these days will not get involved, especially since it was a blatent act of aggression on the part of the NK's, but on the other hand the NK's really are mad enough that they'd consider using their nukes, and I doubt anybody wants to risk that.

Let's discuss how dangerous those nukes might be. I believe it can be assumed they have less of them than there are fingers on a man's palm. Their magnitude can't exceed some 20 kt, if even they'd work at all in a combat situation. All modern armies are aware of nuclear weapon effects and are not very much vulnerable for nuclear attacks. Ordinary armoured units can provide enough protection for 95% of the personnel at the battlefield.

The only big threat would be them aiming the nuke at some city in the South Korea or Japan (I don't seriously believe in a chance of NK sending an ICBM over to the USA territory). This raises two big questions: what means do they have to deliver a nuclear device off the borders of their territory? How difficult is to detect and counter that?

Thus far, only two experimental underground explosions have been performed. This means, there is a chance of NK having built a device that is suitable for putting on a ballistic rocket, but this chance is slim. For a country that is conducting weapons development on their own, much more tests are required to guarantee having a reliable warhead technology.

I'd rather bet on them trying to deliver a nuke on a bomber, or probably a plane performing a suicide attack. But given how much the border region of the South Korea is overfilled with anti-aircraft defenses, and assumed air superiority of the SK and the US army combined, this is also not much of a threat.

In my view, the only chance of the North's nuke to be used is the opening shot of the war, taking by surprise. Or exploding it on their own territory on the ground as an act of desperation after an invasion has begun (but see above about near immunity of an army towards single nuclear explosions).

So is it true to consider it a real stopper?

 

[Artlav]

The question is, just how much intelligence do NK generals have?
With proper planning and careful execution, an NK nuke can go off in any big city of the planet and no one would know how it got there until too late.

Consider this scenario:
NK cargo ship leaves the country, passing all the checks or whatever, and goes towards open ocean. There, it meets up with a submarine, and gets the nuke on board. After that, it follows to the target city, and detonates in port.

What would prevent that scenario?