landing problems

Dreamer

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I try to land and with shuttle, glider, etc I just can't seem to line up the runway. The runway is always off and if i do get on the runway i can't line it up striaght enough so i go off it anyway. is there any rules that can help like when to turn to line up. the instructions don't really cover this

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pete.dakota

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I try to land and with shuttle, glider, etc I just can't seem to line up the runway. The runway is always off and if i do get on the runway i can't line it up striaght enough so i go off it anyway. is there any rules that can help like when to turn to line up. the instructions don't really cover this

dreamer

Whatever you do, don't use the rudder (numpad 1 or 3, stick 'twist') to point yourself at the runway. There is no wind in orbiter so it's not needed for lining up. You should only really need to use bank and pitch for learning to land in Orbiter.

Be conservative in lining up, too. Try to imagine an invisible and infinite line coming straight down through, away and from the runway, fly toward that and then bank to line up. This is called final approach and it's there to give you lots of time to lined up perfectly and managing your speed and decent rate. Essentially, never fly 'toward' the runway until you have actually lined up with it.

Try using the stock DG for practicing. Are you using a joystick?
 

Enjo

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You can use HSI MFD. Tune it to frequencies of the runway and see how it performs. Pretty self explanatory.
 

Dreamer

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pete, i am doing what you suggested already but not very good at it. I guess i need LOTS of practice. No joystick just keys

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Urwumpe

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Well, it is assumed that you get the trick quickly. Here a quick summary of hints, no full instructions. Different spacecraft need different instructions. Also Orbiters manual contains some hints about the runway landing aids.

1. You mostly deal with spacecraft here, which have a glide angle of about 20°. The glide angle of the ILS in Orbiter is 3° so you can only use it for the final approach.

2. You want to line up on the runway with a craft which has the following properties: It is as mobile as a pregnant yak, glides bad when you fly fast and drops like a stone when you are too slow. You can't use yaw for lining up. Instead, you carefully bank. Also you have only one try usually for landing. Don't waste energy you need. Make careful turns as hard turns cost energy. Don't turn if you don't need to. You can only generate energy with engines and you are not always having engines. It is better to land slightly too fast, than to land too slow in a spacecraft. You don't want to drop like a stone when ground is near.

3. The trick is called the HAC maneuver. The Heading alignment cone is a virtual cone next to the runway. Your goal is to fly around the surface this cone. You start 10 km above the runway and end the turn in a bit more than 3 km altitude. Yes, you drop almost 7 km during the turn. No, that is intentional. That way you keep a high speed while turning. You usually have no visible clue, where this cone is, so you need some stomach feeling to imagine where one is. You enter the turn about 4-6 km away from the runway, at more than 270 m/s, in 10-12 km altitude. Using HSI MFD is a good help as it can display the distance to the runway. You need some feeling to get this right, but it is generally simpler to fly around a cone you don't see, as to line up directly with the runway, manage the energy of your spaceplane and land intact.

3. When you come gliding towards the runway at a steep 20° angle, you aim for the beginning of the running lights in front of the runway. When you are left of the runway, aim for a point right of the nominal target, etc.

4. Look for the ILS indicator. When the glide slope indicator starts moving up, pull up and line up for the 3° landing slope. You should now still be pretty fast, but speed now drops quickly. When you aimed for the right spot, your remaining energy will be enough to reach the runway. If you come in too fast, use the air brakes. What is too fast depends on the spacecraft.
 

chris

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If possible, make a recording of one of your landing attempts and post it here.

As Enjo said, be sure to use the HSI. It allows you to line up the runway even when it's outside your field of view. The tendency in all flight simulators is to want to turn in from your baseline leg too soon. This happens because the tiny FOV is disorienting. People aim for the runway threshold, thinking they'll make a quick turn to line up with the runway after they cross it. That's really not going to work. You've got to line up much farther out than that. The HSI will help.

I can't really know if any of this applies to you unless I can see what you're doing. So please post a video if possible.
 

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I use the ILS too but only from about 30Km to 20-15Km away, basically when in range and doing a turn. From there I use logic (basic trigonometry) and the HUD. Put the velocity indicator on the runway then take a quick look at the heading. If you are landing on a runway named 15, you know you have to fly a heading of 150 deg and have the velocity indicator on the runway to be 100% ligned up. If you should go right your heading should be higher than 150 deg. If you should go to the left (ie. you are on the right side of the runway) the heading is less.

Like already stated, you should only bank and pitch to change the heading. The rudder is not that efficient anyway at those speeds (unlike commercial planes). I find it usefull when under 150 m/s velocity. Don't over-use it anyway since the orbiter banks the other way (can't remember the name of the phenomena but it's simulated in orbitersim).

Overall, yes, you need some practice. And is like fast driving: always plan ahead and keep your eyes in the distance. If you point your aircraft to the middle of the runway you won't have time for corections. Point it to the VASI lights, even farther away. And make only small adjustments, ie. if you're about 2 deg off to the left don't head to 160 deg and then turn fast to 150. Do 153 for a while until you are ligned up and then align with the runway. Fly any other way and you'll end up doing S turns.
 

Dreamer

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I just use visual that must be the problem. i will try your suggestions. Hopefully that will do it

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pete.dakota

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I just use visual that must be the problem. i will try your suggestions. Hopefully that will do it

dreamer

One thing I did to get good at dead stick landings was, over and over again, flying the "... on Final Approach" scenarios that come with shuttle fleet. These start you out close to the runway, at a good distance, and descending at the correct rate. All you have to do is make a few minor corrections to get yourself aligned, pre-flare and flare to touchdown. I must have run those scenario's at least 100 times.

After a while you won't need any instruments, just the HUD, and will be able to make good approaches and landings.
 

V8Li

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Multitasking is a problem if you're not experienced. I'll release soon an MFD that adds custom info on the HUD, like deceleration, g force, speed in knots, vessel weight etc. Practice is what matters but I think it'll help beginers.
 
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