Project Here goes nothing: The Delta-StarLiner G42

[Coolhand]

Looks like we're all on the same page. Which is a different one than Coolhand.

hmm i guess if i'm that far off the mark its generating some kind of underground revolt against me personally, we wont bother at all then, eh? Why make my own life harder having to defend my work in multiple threads...? What do his or anyones choice of cockpit layout have to do with me?

if you wanna crit me or my work then do it in my thread, where i'll see it. same for critiquing anyones work... And why are you even so certain that the cockpit was even my idea? how do you know it wasn't a compromise due to coding issues and time as well as modelling?

I'll leave the arguments as to why its actually a pretty good idea alone because i don't wanna derail this thread any further, apologies to the op.

its looking great btw:thumbup:

 

[Moach]

np, coolhand! kudos on your work BTW


as for the radiator... i did give it some thought... having it in the bay would be the most obvious choice... but i thought it would be nice to have solar panels there, for recharging the batteries when the APU is off

then the radiators should go somewhere else... or should the solar panels...

the airbrakes share the same surfaces and actuators from the rudderons... why waste a good split surface?

the main engines are cooled by bypassed air scooped from the long-discussed upper inlets... however, this can only be sustained up to mach 1-2, after that, it becomes more of a heating problem than a solution...

at that point, the main engines go off, and the lower RAMCASTER takes charge... the upper inlets remain half-opened so incoming air can be cooled by rapid decompression inside the manifold... but when hypersonic flight kicks in, it's gotta be fully closed, and then temperature must be closely observed until RECO (Ram Engines CutOff)


back to the main engines, the should have cooled down enough after being off for a while, so on they go again... when DynP and weight are gone, conventional radiator panels can freely extend... how will those look i'm not quite sure yet...

if you want, feel free to doodle up some ideas and post away... no need to be a grand masterpiece of the arts... remember, the original ISS configuration was conceived on a bar napkin

 

[River Crab]

:OMG:

Ack! Our secret meeting has been compromised! He was lurking the whole time!:rofl:
​

Don't worry Coolhand, I didn't mean that with a grain of disapproval. The XR2 cockpit is fitting for a vessel of that advancement, while this one is more of a realistic near-future craft. I'll probably end up using the XR series as a benchmark for excellent add-ons, so please don't take it the wrong way when I make comparisons. I'm sure the XR2 touchscreen must have tactile feedback and sextuple-redundant backup or something. No one knows what the future may hold...
Also, there's a good chance that I'm within a few hours driving distance from dbeachy, so I guess I should watch myself now, huh? :shifty:
On a positive note, I have written a poetic ode to the XR2. :tiphat:
It needs to be an image or .doc for full effect. I'm posting it in the XR2 Mk II thread.


...back on topic...

Although, I can see the G42 ending up being just as ridiculous as any of the XRs, if not more. The main ridiculousness being in the ginormous wings.

By the way, what's the strategy for re-entry with this? I mean, what's it really going to be designed for?
I don't think it would be the same kind the STS uses, that seems way too stressful no matter what TPS materials you use.
The SpaceShip2 gliding method is really only for small suborbital craft, so not that.
I was thinking along the lines of upside-down aerobraking, using the huge wings to make downforce. Then you could re-enter at a shallow angle with lower heating, and minimize use of very heavy heatshield materials. Lightweight composites for low heating, aluminum for in-between, and stainlesss steel or something for high heat. Actually, feel free to tell me that's impossible. I don't know. :idk: I know the Spiral was proposed to have a metallic heatshield, and materials will probably have improved.
The problems would be in managing to land at your target with such a shallow angle and crazy changing reentry profile. Even with cross-range it's still still kinda sounds hard. The craft also seems hard to roll back over once you're in the atmosphere, plus the issue of the crew experiencing upside-down Gs...

Since this craft is so different, and proposed to be semi-realistic, it will probably need some good working-out-ing before its design is finished. Now, the XR1 is a better Delta Glider, and a great add-on. But the XR2 is a truly inspired and original design, which is why I love it. It's really a work of art.
Now this, this has great potential. This kind of awesome cannot go to waste. With development, some time you might feel as if you've bitten off more than you can chew. But don't give up! You have my support!
And in times of need, Hail !

 

[Moach]

well... by mistake i have managed to devise a low-impact reentry method...

i took the xr1, and using basesync, i plan my descent to deorbit about half-way around the globe... this takes us in with a very shallow angle... and we fly in with a high AoA, like 30-40 degs...
needless to say, the ship "bounces off" and withing a few seconds, is climbing again...

now, this would appear to be a mistake, but no... coordinating manually with aerobrakeMFD, i can continuously adjust the pitch to fall right on target... the ship will "bounce off" a couple more times but in the end, it´ll end up right on the target without ever going into flames or pulling anything higher than 1.5~2.0 gs

the we just need to glide 'er down...

i guess this would only work for reentering out of LEO... anything faster and we'd be on our ways back to the outer limits again... wouldn't work coming back from the moon, i guess...
but that isn't really a problem, considering this ship is't meant to get there anyways (not by itself, as explained in another topic)

 

[River Crab]

Wow! Sounds long. Sounds challenging. Sounds...INTENSE.
Sounds like I'll have to write another poem! :yes:
Well, as I say when driving, "Anything under 3 gees is fine."

By split surface, you mean deflected, like the F-35 speedbrake, right?

I don't know about solar panels coming with the craft. Seems like too much weight for little efficiency. This is like a shuttle-for-hire, so you're probably going to dock to a station for long missions anyway, or just drop off some people at the Bigelow inflatable station or service a satellite. No need to lurk around. Fuel cells would be much more practical. Unless you're going to Jupiter or something, in which case I can't help you. If you really need power for going to Mars, use a payload, but don't build them into the vessel.

As for materials, how much guesswork is involved? How much Unobtainium are we going for?

I dunno about this, but I might suggest using the construction of a comparable existing aircraft as a base to get a ballpark estimate. You could then scale it to the appropriate size (don't scale too much) and replace some of the materials with other materials.
That might not be worth it compared with actually modeling the airframe structure with CAD to get a much better estimate.
Or, if you're good, you could just guess and spend less time.
You could patch the aerodynamic model later if your guess was within playable limits.

You might want to start a thread on the math/physics forum about how a Speedo LZR would work at hypersonic speeds. Call it shameless self-promotion, but it is a valid physics question...

Also: goal for bay size? bigger than/smaller than X craft?
For reference:
STS bay: 4.6m by 18m
JEM きぼう: 4.4m dia by 11.2m long (largest pressurized volume in space, as of now)
UCGO cargo: 1m by 1m, I think?

It's really starting now. Just keep doing your thing, man. :thumbup:

 

[jaybtlr]

wow, can't wait for this to come together finally , though i presume it will still take some time, no matter, i guess i'll have to wait

 

[Moach]

slowly but surely...

i just got the new visor system operating... press "n" and it toggles... just for now, while the switches in the pit aren't rigged

i guess we can scrap the solar panels... too much extra weight for little gain... the batteries can last a few days, and even if they don't, the APU can recharge them for an extended mission...


by "split surface", i actually mean A10-like airbrakes, similar to those in the DG... if both sides open together, we have airbrakes... open any side alone, and it works as a rudder


still not too sure where the radiators would go... the bay does seem like the logical choice...


and as for flight dynamics, i did do what you said, i took estimates by comparing specs to those of current aircraft, like the concorde, STS and 747...
then i sci-fi'ed the values a bit, just within the realm of possibility, and got a pretty convincing flight model

as i suspected, like any good delta-wing, this thing is REMARKABLY unstable, specially when it's slow... a lot harder to fly than the DG - fun fun fun! :headbang:

 

[River Crab]

press "n" and it toggles... just for now, while the switches in the pit aren't rigged

Oh, please don't remove that keybinding. lease:
I mean, would it hurt to leave them in? Like the XR series and the Soyuz, which have keys for everything. You can just list them in the documentation, right?

I think people will want to interface it with their X52 Pros, which you just convinced them all to buy. Anyway, having to take my hand off use the mouse during ascent just kills my groove.

All the best. :thumbup:

 

[Moach]

i'm not gonna remove it... i'll add a switch in the panel for it, but it should be reduntant...

i jist thought i'd switch it to 'v', for "Visor"... 'n' was for "Nose cone"... so it doesn't make much sense now...

i too, like to bind keys to buttons on my x52, i'm not gonna leave this out...

but i reckon some switches will not have redundant keys... as is the case for the center MFD, which is only accessible via mouse...

 

[River Crab]

Oh, misunderstood that.

Right now I'm trying to figure out what the textures will look like.
I'm trying to consider the panel lines around the design, but that's not final so I don't know.

Still thinking about radiators, there are almost unlimited possibilities- I'm trying to figure out something that's both functional and original.

As for the docking system- I think I'm pretty set on the bay docking, and I feel for something like the Space Shuttle ODS, but with an additional port facing the bay.
Advantages of this system:
- Expansion for passenger cargoes, hab modules, rescue modules, large dockable fuel tanks
- Dock small vessels- Lunar lander/transfer vehicle, XR0, Dragonfly-lite
- Use (steal) XR2 payloads
- Fuel and Oxygen, maybe food and trash, handled by UCGO
- Cargo without docking ports would have to use Kulch's payload manager
- No need to develop a new proprietary payload system.
- Capability and expandability for many missions.
Problems:
-Release: will payloads be ejected into the rear of the spacecraft when undocked? How to null their velocity without them re-docking?
-Blockage: UCGO cargoes will grapple through a docked vessel. I don't think there's really a fix for this, but you could have some kind of indication of where they would go- perhaps ribs with the correct spacing, and a custom HUD/diagram in the cockpit. People will just have to decide whether or not to cheat.

This would be easier to explain with pictures. Working on concept art, I'll have those soon...

 

[Moach]

yeah... just the other day a i watched a discovery channel special on the return of the shuttle (after Columbia, dont get your hopes up, it's really retired now), and a bay docking is a very much awesome thing to watch...

so i was pretty sure my ship would end up having the dock placed there... it's just more fun


also, this clears up the nose cone for cool things like retro thrusters... those are indeed, as we say back in Brazil, quite "another hand on the wheel" - meaning something truly helpful :hmm:

i have modeled a little hatch on the fuselage behing the bay, which i originally intended to use for deploying DG-like radiators... still, i think we could do better...

i have yet to find a place to put the APU diffuser vent... it needs to be something like a capped pipe, to detain any thrust from this exhaust, or be placed somewhere where it can have a symmetrical counterpart, for that same reason...


another thing... since we have a bay, we MUST have a manipualtor arm... i was thinking of leaving an open "socket" by the docking port for attaching one of those "universal" rigs... who made that anyways?

or i could just rip off the code from the atlantis :shifty:



as for stopping ppl from moving cargo through the vessel mesh, i wouldn't be concerned... this is orbiter, and being a SIM, not a GAME, it's in the player's nature to avoid doing that, since we all like to go for realism (else, we'd be playing some star-wars space shooter or *urgh* EVE... )


i finally got around the problems i've been having with GDI and drawing the panel instruments... i think tonight i may have some free time to play around with my ship again, i hope i can fix what was going wrong...

and fortunately, i found a way to run orbiter in this here laptop (disable shadows), so once i get everything installed and going, i can work on the startliner from it

...and hope my boss won't catch me :uhh: lol... nah, he's cool... and my job is to make games, anyways

---------- Post added 05-27-10 at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was 05-26-10 at 10:24 AM ----------

Ok... progress update time :woohoo:

i finally got the displays to work! drawing on them took a while, but now, it's going pretty well!
i have yet to write me up a few functions to help out in doing this... the display refresh code is quickly becoming a heap of unreadable mess


yay! happy! :hotcool: this was holding me back for a while now... good to be making headway again:download:


that VC has a LOT of buttons... this is gonna take me a while...:compbash2:


worry not... i'll probably start releasing open-WIP versions as soon as it starts to make sense... (and maybe i can get a little help):tumbleweed:

 

[River Crab]

hsnap:
Oh snap! This thing is gonna be so BOSS! :rofl:(yeah, I'm cool)
Are all those cockpit things going to be functional? Either way, it needs moar pics in higher res to do it justice. I wanna see the joystick!

 

[Moach]

i plan on making as much stuff be functional as i can... a lot of it already is, such as the 3 main mfds, the extra hud info and some fields on the lower mfds...

there'll be more to come, for sure... i'll post some more detail pics when i get the chance :thumbup:

 

[Dambuster]

That extra HUD info looks perfect!!

 

[Moach]

it does indeed help out a lot....

i've added a number of things for each hud mode...

in surface mode it displays: AoA and slip angles, Mach, Dynamic press. and Static press readouts...
in orbit there is: ApA, PeA, SMa, Ecc, and some more...
in docking mode there's not much new... but there's a warning showing when the dock is not ready (i.e. bay doors closed)

i have in plans to make each one of the three systems MFD's have multiple different "screens", showing info for engines, fuel tanks, hull temperature, electrics, hydraulics and whatnot...


it is a lot... i know...

for that reason, and just because it's cool, i'm glad to annouce that the G42 is now going OPEN-SOURCE :thumbup:

i've just created a git repository for it, with it's original project name "DGa2"... there are no files yet, i'll add them when i get home

address is: [email protected]:Moach/DGa2.git

you'll (obviously) need git to commit any changes... (it's worth the steep-ish learning curve)

this way, anyone can make changes as they please, meaning the G42 will always be improving :thumbup:

and for those who can't wait until it's done to take her for a spin, you can also download all files as a .zip without git from here: http://github.com/Moach/DGa2 (click "download source") - of course, this method is read-only


of course, i'll need to add the files first... so no need to rush there just yet


cheerz

 

[River Crab]

Yeah! Open source FTW! It does make sense with Orbiter, so yeah. Since you make games for a living, I applaud you for releasing your code. :tiphat:
Now that it's open, what do you plan on doing next? And doing last (so we can do it for you )?
cheers

 

[James.Denholm]

Um, just a small note re. open-source and so on - It may be wise to implement some sort of admin-checkery before Joe Random's code is plonked into the overall project. And I'm not just saying that such would be done in a "LOL I BR0K3RZ UR CODE F4G!" way, but also in a "I'm just going to check in some useful code, but while I'm doing that, let's put in this little bit that systematically wipes the user's computer." And, of course, if someone does put something that destroys computers, those end-users who have that happen to them will blame you. And (in some ways), they'd be right to.

Look, I'm not saying that collaborative projects are bad or anything, and open-sourcery is of course good in many people's eyes, but we are on the Internet.

Other than that, this thing is looking sweeeeeet! I'm definitely going to be following this development.

 

[Moach]

yes, i did think of that...

from what i read, git appears to have features made to avoid things like that... you need SSH keys to push commits and stuff...

i'm brazillian... i'm used to expecting everyone to try and screw with you :shifty::lol:

i'm still learning exactly how git works... it seems incrediby versatile and powerful for something so lightweight... me likes it!


i think i'd keep the master branch under my control... others may upload changes as branches which i could choose to merge to the master...

i though of organizing something like "variants" of the project...
if someone wants to make it unrealistically powerful enough to reach Jupiter or something, he could create his own variant, and have his way without clashing with other possibly conflicting developments


i have no delusions of a one-ship-fits-all approach... someone will probably want it to do something which others may not agree, so "variants" seem like a nice way of getting around that...

the master variant will be known as the G42, others may have whatever name pleases the author(s)


that's why the "root" project itself, is dubbed DGa2, instead of the name i first introduced it as "StarLiner G42"


this thread has developed into a discussion about git and how it works... worth checking out!

 

[Moach]

ok, i finally got home and have uploaded the files! same address - check it out!

if you don't see a sounds folder, hang on, they're uploading as i write this... i forgot to add them to the first commit... :embarrassed:


please don't upload changes directly to the G42 branch, create a variant instead and let me worry about the merging... this will avoid inadvised overwriting of things :thumbup:


cheerz

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

ok... i have also forgot to commit the config files... hold on... should be up in a few minutes :blush:

 

[MeDiCS]

Just a heads-up. Usually, you shouldn't include release files, such as DLLs, 'staging' files, such as everything under Debug/, and personal files, such as *.user for MSVC projects.

This should help. You may want to delete and recreate the repository without those files.

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

Here is the .gitignore snip I usually use for MSVC++ 2010 projects:

*.ncb
*.suo
*.user
*.sdf
*.opensdf
Release/
Debug/
ipch/

For older versions, drop '*.sdf', '*.opensdf' and 'ipch/'. Don't forget to add everything you need and put it on the root dir.

p.s.: you can rename the 'master' branch (to avoid an useless master branch). Type 'git branch -m new_name' while checked out on master.