Project G42-200 StarLiner

[cymrych]

but may I suggest in the next WIP release, some form of elevator trim be incorporated to make the sub sonic atmospheric flight a easier to control

Weird, no problems with the trim on my install. Pretty sure elev trim has been on the G42 since WIP 1. Think it's even been toned down some, to make it's response more realistic. I guess it's possible that Moach changed the key assignment for trim, but I don't remember hearing of it if he did. (Got my trim tabs assigned to my stick, so I don't recall exactly where they innately lie in orbiter.)

Haven't landed the latest WIP303 yet, so can't confirm on the wheel brakes yet.

As for landing, its so far been a trial-and-error affair. I use Base Approach for the deorbit burn and Glideslope to monitor the long slide through the upper airs. Be advised, the '42 generates a tremendous amount of lift, and its remarkable how far one can slip through the atmosphere from entry interface to resuming normal aircraft-like flight around 30-40km up. I generally give myself a really shallow, long entry phase, and use my bank angles to maintain an altitude around 70km until I'm down to something like 600km from runway. Then I bank more to cut through the heavier part of the atmosphere below 60km, bleeding off loads of energy, and come out something like 150-300km from runway, at Mach 2ish and 30-40km in altitude. Center the wings to maximize glide lift, and that last 300km or so is no big deal at all. Although, I must admit I spool up the turbines in case of a Missed Approach.

Moach, dude, I know you got a million little things to bundle up for WIP 4, but ... any chance we could get a simple camera view along the docking port? I mean, it's fun and all achieving harddock purely on instruments, good skills practice and whatnot. But it'd be really convenient when trying to mate this beast to the ISS, imho!

 

[Moach]

Weird, no problems with the trim on my install. Pretty sure elev trim has been on the G42 since WIP 1. Think it's even been toned down some, to make it's response more realistic. I guess it's possible that Moach changed the key assignment for trim, but I don't remember hearing of it if he did. (Got my trim tabs assigned to my stick, so I don't know where they innately lie in orbiter.)

Haven't landed the latest WIP303 yet, so can't confirm on the wheel brakes yet.

Moach, dude, I know you got a million little things to bundle up for WIP 4, but ... any chance we could get a simple camera view along the docking port? I mean, it's fun and all achieving harddock purely on instruments, good skills practice and whatnot. But it'd be really convenient when trying to mate this beast to the ISS, imho!

the controls for the trim are the same as for the DG, with 'ins' and 'del' keys... i haven't changed it, anyways - you sure its not working? that's an Orbiter stock feature (just basic stats setup on my end) :huh:

as for the camera and docking view.... well, we're talking about a rather advanced feature, which is the bay-pit VC :hmm:

see that pillbox-like structure next to the dock? - that's the bay operator bay, from where one would coordinate EVA's, cargo and work the RMS arm - that box is meant to have windows around it (not modelled ATM), so you could clearly see the station coming up from there

as you can see - it's not a near-future thing, but it's planned nonetheless - as is a middle-deck walkthrough cabin where you can move about and commute between the flight deck and the bay box

'til then, you can still use that cameraMFD addon... assuming it still works with the more recent Orbiter versions, that is.... :hmm:


btw - the brakes are (as in the DG) activated by the , and . keys - they don't work if you land without gears tho.... you didn't, did you? :lol:

 

[Cras]

I will give the trim a try again. I was using del and ins, which I think are default keys for elevator trim. I may have just not applied enough of it, and means the trim is quite the fine adjustment, which of course is a good thing.

I was also using < and > for brakes, which is the default keys for brakes. Those things flat out did nothing for me. It stood out from the moment I tried to taxi from the gate to the runway. A little bit of throttle and I hit the brakes and nada, no stopping power at all.

 

[Grover]

i think its time i broke out the Orbiter testing installation and gave this another run for my money. i shelved it for a while whilst i was getting through a few university assignments, but i might have some free time for beta'ing soon (Hopefully)

think im gonna try docking this to the ISS V3.2 for the total visual experience

 

[cymrych]

Right on! Sounds pretty awesome, Moach. Mid-deck movement, a bay VC, cargo/RMS station ... you HAVE thought of everything!

As I was literally just looking for a generic camera pointed Z+, simply to see what I was docking to (to avoid the loss of emersion by "stepping" outside to see), I'll check out cameraMFD. Frankly, I forgot all about it over the years, never really used it much.

Anyone know if it still functions in Orbiter10 Sp1?

 

[Cras]

ISS 3.2 is sweet visaully no doubt. And the Starliner has dorsal docking, which is awesome. I so do love dorsal docking as opposed to the retractable nose cone docking that so many other ships utilize.

 

[jgrillo2002]

quick(ish) explanation of how to achieve orbit with the 303


-snip-

That tutorial got me into orbit. Thanks again, mate.

 

[Grover]

CameraMFD does work on 2010, and it is a good way to get a Z+ view, but it wont be aligned to the docking port, so its only a quick visual reference tool

 

[Grover]

does anyone know if the launch MFD fuzzy AP is compatible with this bird? i just got a CTD as soon as i hit the button

other than that, nice sound effects, just a couple things:
the turbine sound is quite quiet from external views, is it possible to beef up that sound a bit?
and the air rush sound associated with an open visor (below mach setting) is a little sharp and loud, is it possible to make this sound bleed in and out a little better? right now it cuts off abruptly once the visor reaches closed position, rather than a quick but smooth reduction in volume

but thats about all i have for now, im gonna try some turbine flight around WIN and then maybe re-entry, wish me luck!

 

[Cras]

I highly doubt the Launch MFD AP will work. Not many autopilots work with this thing due to the way it handles all the different engines. So far I have seen IMFD not work (won't load at all in the VC, instead a messed up image), IMFD and Burntime Calc are not able to deal with the OMS switch over, so can't use those either.

You will find that you have to switch engines that you are using at various points in the flight, and they all require their own set of switches that need throwing.

There are a few autopilots that I wouldn't mind seeing in this bird at some point. Since it is a turbine aircraft for the first part of the flight, it would be cool to see some ability to control vertical speed, and/or heading.

Btw, from my earlier post, the trim is definately working for me. Just takes a bit more input than I was expecting, but certainly works to keep a nice attitude during the initial ascent. However brakes are a total no go for me for some reason. But I am also suffering from brake loss on all vehicles, I have a thread about it with the XR2, when ever I am using D3D9 client on Win XP x64.

I will also add that Glideslope MFD's steering works very well with this bird. Burns up a bit of propellent with the constant RCS jet use, but does make the turns and the maintaining the AOA (even if it is not an exact 40, which is probably not neccessary with the Starliner) very easy.

 

[Scruce]

So far I have seen IMFD not work (won't load at all in the VC, instead a messed up image), IMFD and Burntime Calc are not able to deal with the OMS switch over, so can't use those either.

Universal Autopilots contains a launch to trans-orbit then orbit insertion autopilot that might work with the G42 Starliner. Have you tried that?

If it does not work, then I would +1 for a good launch autopilot specifically for the G42.

 

[Cras]

I have not tried UAP myself. I have done a few ascent to orbits with the G42 and found it fairly easy to handle by hand. Just got to keep the crosshairs on the EICAS in the blue zone on the way up and you are good to go.

But when UAP works, it works as well as any autopilot I have seen so far for Orbiter. That thing can get me into a target orbit with little to no error in the inclination. It does have a habit from time to time in "getting lost" and hopelessly burning the engines on a course to nowhere which can be a bit of a let down. But when it is on course, it is on the money.

The one part that I need a better grip on is the T3 and beyond range, the part where you switch to the internal oxidizer rocket engines. They are sweet motors, but you have a limited oxidizer supply, and the OMS engines are weak sauce so I find the hardest part of getting into orbit is using the rockets to get to my target Apogee but not have a ridiculously low and non-recoverable perigee. I admit I have been spoiled with the XR2 which has just such massive engines for orbital manuvers that it is easy to fix a highly eccentric orbit. On this one, not so much. Best to get the orbit right at insertion.

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Get the fuel transfer MFD and transfer some of your main fuel to the Oxidizer tank. Don't know if that qualifies as cheating, though.
:hmm: what about some velcro droptanks in the payload bay feeding additional oxidizer? I've never tried it with a multi-fueltank vessel...

 

[Moach]

some things are worth noting...

* the OMS jets are not designed for heavy-duty circularizing of orbits... not unless you're just a few notches off... but if you have a PeA that's too low, feel free to light up the mains once again - they're built for starting arbitrarily any number of times in orbit, as long as there's fuel to pull it off (that's one big advantage of full reuseability)


* i don't think there's any autopilots out there that would do a decent job in handling the '42... it's too "quirky" for the taste of most things of that sort :hmm:
the flight dynamics should be friendly enough so that you can take it up by hand - at least for now, until i get around coding a proper autopilot


* i'll see to check those sound effects again... i might add a more "umph"-packing roar loop for the external view, since the current stuff is pretty much the same as in internal view, only louder


* any use of fuel transfer MFD's and alike is indeed a stroll down cheater's lane :lol:
specially if you use it to magically convert between fuel types...
you see - each of those three reserves bear a completely different and incompatible type of supply... transferring between them is really not any less supernatural than whatever powers the stock DG

future plans do include UCGO fuel packs in the bay and some drop tanks too... their contents are still non-interchangeable tho....

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Figured as much. I used it once, just to see if it would work.
However, would it be possible to add some Velcro Droptanks for additional oxidizer (I'm assuming it's LOX)?

 

[Cras]

I did notice there are switches in the VC for drop tanks (which would be so cool when implemented), and also the speed brake and drogue chute (again, so cool when implemented).

Atmospheric autopilot is the only thing I would think would be needed. Since this thing has two turbo fans (or what ever they are supposed to be), and that it takes some time to climb to FL350, and do a normal flight pattern approach, the ability like the DGIV has with hold altitude, heading, and speed. As for getting into orbit, that part is not to difficult.

My last attempt to get the G42 into orbit I tried to keep a very level attitude to the horizon to get the perigee as high as I could get by the time I hit my target apogee, but I ran out of oxidizer so the rockets went dead. A bit more practice in this part of the flight plan is in order I think before I can get cerfitied ATP for the Starliner

But it really is great to fly. Just handles great both in the ascent and the re-entry. This add-on has got to be considered as must have, even in its current WIP condition. It is more than suitable for work in orbit, and the stuff to come is like gravey on an already fantastic tasting turkey!

 

[Grover]

some things are worth noting...

* the OMS jets are not designed for heavy-duty circularizing of orbits... not unless you're just a few notches off... but if you have a PeA that's too low, feel free to light up the mains once again - they're built for starting arbitrarily any number of times in orbit, as long as there's fuel to pull it off (that's one big advantage of full reuseability)


* i don't think there's any autopilots out there that would do a decent job in handling the '42... it's too "quirky" for the taste of most things of that sort :hmm:
the flight dynamics should be friendly enough so that you can take it up by hand - at least for now, until i get around coding a proper autopilot


* i'll see to check those sound effects again... i might add a more "umph"-packing roar loop for the external view, since the current stuff is pretty much the same as in internal view, only louder


* any use of fuel transfer MFD's and alike is indeed a stroll down cheater's lane :lol:
specially if you use it to magically convert between fuel types...
you see - each of those three reserves bear a completely different and incompatible type of supply... transferring between them is really not any less supernatural than whatever powers the stock DG

future plans do include UCGO fuel packs in the bay and some drop tanks too... their contents are still non-interchangeable tho....

1) therefore, it is worth learning how to ration your rockets to balance their use between tangential and vertical velocity

3) i think the sounds should be the other way around: much louder in external view. since the inside would likely have some sound-proofing to keep the crew away from the sounds of the APU and engines that would keep them from sleeping.

4) indeed this is cheating, unless you take it from another craft (Eg, ISS) so that you have enough for re-entry and approach

and finally, how does the CoG shift work at the moment? is it implemented? and what settings should we use for holding 40* AoA for re-entry?


thanks moach!

 

[Moach]

1) therefore, it is worth learning how to ration your rockets to balance their use between tangential and vertical velocity

3) i think the sounds should be the other way around: much louder in external view. since the inside would likely have some sound-proofing to keep the crew away from the sounds of the APU and engines that would keep them from sleeping.

4) indeed this is cheating, unless you take it from another craft (Eg, ISS) so that you have enough for re-entry and approach

and finally, how does the CoG shift work at the moment? is it implemented? and what settings should we use for holding 40* AoA for re-entry?


thanks moach!

1 - indeed, but it's worth mentioning that in a spaceplane, your ascent trajectory is mostly horizontal, and vertical velocity is a much smaller factor than with conventional launchers (i.e. - you basically fly like an airplane into orbit)

2 - ? :lol:

3 - it kinda is... i may have expressed myself poorly... the external sounds are the same as the internal ones but louder - or were at least supposed to be - it so may have happened that the external effects come out fainter than on the inside - i'll definitely check into that, since that's plain old wrong :hmm:

4 - :thumbup:

finally - there's a rough implementation of the CoG shift feature as of now, which can be activted by using the - and = keys to the left of backspace
it's quite crude at the moment, its range is potentially infinite and it has no visual feedback of any kind (you may have to count your keystrokes there)

but it does cause the nose to pull up and down like nothing else can

btw - i've never really got a 40° reentry done properly.... i've had success at much higher AoA values, like 55~60°
it's a quirky bird, i'll give you that - but that's also part of what makes it fun to fly....

just remember to fold the wings up before taking 'er down, then back to center whenever you find you could use some lift and fly "normally" again - the turbojets come back on for landing when you get yourself subsonic (i'd think a supersonic windmill-start is just asking for an explosive end to your trip, no?)

 

[cymrych]

Moach, just out of curiosity, what sort of payload mass are you anticipating/planning for the '42?

For kicks and giggles, I tried loading up the bay with 6 or 7 metric tons of UCGO cargo on a Universal Cargo Deck the other day. Once I got the G to lift off the runway, the ascent to 300km circular orbit was fantastic, nice and smooth. I didn't think to write down the numbers, but I seem to recall the fuel consumption was maybe 20-30% greater than the standard WIP configuration. It did feel like she had an elephant strapped to her back, as the controls were somewhat sluggish and "squishy", but nothing unmanageable.

But all that is kind of moot, since the biggest issue I had when loaded was getting the G to rotate on the tarmac! Finally got the nose to lift at about 250m/s groundspeed ... but it took two or 3 times the runway length so liftoff was WAY out in the grass past the end of runway 15 at Kennedy. The way the '42 shot into the air once I achieved even a minimal positive angle of attack as the nosewheel finally came up, I'm sure the added mass is within specs, but it seems the distance forward of the center of lift is keeping the nosewheel pinned to the asphalt.

Then again, I didn't know we have some limited CoG shifting ability, which should help take some of the weight off the nose for takeoff. Gotta go play some more! So that I'm not cheating and destroying all sense of realism, what's the maximum number of - keystrokes that would still have the shifted mass inside the bird?

 

[Cras]

For the Vr speed, did you have the afterburners on? My first attempt with the G42 was very similar, where I did not have the afterburners on and I just throttled up and rolled down the runway and into the lake bed at Edwards AFB.

With the afterburners on, you will accelerate much quicker and will be able to get off the ground before you run out of ruway easily.