Project G42-200 StarLiner

Moach

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Welcome aboard the G42-200 Starliner development thread :hello:




the latest release is: WIP 3'02
dowload from the hangar: [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5456"]G42-200 StarLiner WIP-302[/ame]

for follow-ups on current progress and discussion about features, bugs and whatnot - proceed to last page :thumbup:


Edit:

New continuity to the project was granted by the act of exalted members of the human race! See: This new thread

Edited;



given the lack of conceptual stability inherent of the work-in-progress nature of this project - documentation is indeed scarce - therefore, what we have for now, is this checklist covering the most recent state developmment stage for surface-to-orbit operations


flight and systems model: WIP-303


1 - engines start

* master feed pumps - all three on
* apu feed pump - on
* apu - start
* engine mode - check EXT shown on EICAS
* burner/reheat - off
* turbine cycle - start

2 - takeoff

* canards - extended - cycle once (tap 'N' twice to clear off scenario load bug)
* visor - down
* wings - center
* burner/reheat - on
* flight controls - check
* seatbelts - fasten! :thumbup:
* throttle - crank up to 80%, allow engines rev-up - floor it!
* rotate - pitch up slowly to 10 degrees max (lest tailstrike)
* positive rate - confirm, and increase pitch for climbout
* gears - UP


3 - climbout

* burner/reheat - off
* airspeed - hold subsonic
* altitude - climb to FL350 (~10km)
* ATC - imagine yourself getting the needed clearances now

4 - supersonic transition

* airspeed - above mach .85
* altitude - approaching 10km
* canards - retract
* visor - extend
* burner/reheat - on (past mach 1.5 as required)
* throttle - 80~100%

5 - T1 (ramcaster insertion)

* flight envelope - check eicas graph converging on T1
* ramcaster doors - open
* ramcaster throttle - to 60% (where it says 'ENG')
* burner/reheat - off
* ramcaster - ignition, confirm (audible "boom" and MODE:LO shown on eicas)
* acceleration - check increased forward rate
* main eng throttle - close
* ramcaster throttle - full
* turbine cycle - cut
* main engines mode - INT
* wing position - to HPC after mach 3.5

6 - T2 (ramcaster mode transition)

* flght envelope - check converging on T2
* ramcaster mode - transition to high
* confirm transition - audible rumble sound, eicas shows MODE:HI
* flight envelope - proceed to T3
* MFDs - Orbit display, as required

7 - T3 (rocket mode transition)

* flght envelope - check converging on T3
* main fuel supply - ~80k
* oxidizer feed pumps - both on
* stby ignition - RCS on
* rcs feed pump - on
* main throttle - 25%
* engine mode - check INT on eicas
* turbine cycle - start
* gen pct (rpm) - rising
* rocket start - confirm - check tape gauge shown on eicas
* ramcaster throttle - close
* ramcaster cycle - cut
* ramcaster doors - close
* main throttle - full
* RCS mode - rotation
* orbit progress - monitor

8 - orbit insertion

* HUD - orbit
* ApA - converging on target as planned
* throttle - keep accel under 1.5G's as requred by mission/crew profile
* ApA mark reached - check
* throttle - close (engines will shutdown when in rocket mode)
* turbine cycle - cut
* master feed pumps - all off
* oxidizer feed pumps - both off
* ApA/ApT - check and monitor
* atm pressure - check surface MFD showing N/A and zero dns
* visor - down (lo and behold - you're in space!)
* RCS doors - open

9 - circularize

* ApT - minimum T-100s before mark
* stby ignition - OMS on
* oms feed pump - on
* thr authority - OMS
* oms capability - check 'OMS' shown on HUD
* ApT - hold for mark as required
* throttle - open as required
* ApA/PeA//Ecc - monitor until OMS cutoff

10 - :cheers:

* bay doors - open (press 'B', switch not installed yet)
* awesome - you are now!
* drinks - on the house! (depending on program budget)








--------------- original first post ----------------



hmm... ok...

since i'm unable to contain my own A.D.D.-powered torrent of random ideas, here's the latest development of mine....


the other day i was showing the still-not-finished G42 to my brother (HarvesteR) and i got to thinking....


give that a couple of weeks, and i got something new in mind....

i wanted the G42 to be as realistic as possible.... but i feel i have exhausted all the possible "excuses" for the realism of a DG-based craft...

so i got an adapted concept brewing for the past few weeks... it's not a total departure from the original G42... it looks a little different tho...

look:



this is basically a "stretched-out" verion of the G42-100 (the old one)...

but there are a few key differences... most notably - the variable-geometry wings...

in order to achieve optimal performance at the various stages of flight - the tip sections of the wing are z-axis-pivoted enabling the wings to work in different configurations which are best indicated for each stages conditions...

the concept is: (let me know if my "science" is too far off, k?)

in takeoff mode - the wings are flat, as to achieve the widest lift area and vertical cross-section possible

for hyper-cruise, the wings fold downward, like in an XB-70... using the lower-body shockwaves to add some lift - a "waverider" of sorts...

for reentry (assuming a 40° AoA attitude) - the wings are folded upwards, as to reduce the area exposed to the abuse of aerobraking - as well as giving us a little more "rudder", when it's so much needed



as for the engines - i'm sticking with the RAMCASTER concept - but now we have a much larger engine assembly mounted below, and a nicely redesigned intake, with a little shockwave-adapting flag up front and all...

i'm not all decided about the shape of the cockpit yet.... i guess i could still maintain the DG-like canopy with the visor (which does look very cool, i guess)

or i might scratch that and go for a more airliner-like setup....


feel free to pitch in... this is mostly brain-fart at this stage :cheers:

hail the probe! :hailprobe:


note* for those who just got here and have no idea what a G42 is and what the hell i'm talking about - look here
 
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Fabri91

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While I thought the "old" G42 looked awesome, this is even better!

Regarding the cockpit, I think a more airliner or shuttle-like window arrangement would be better instead of having a canopy more or less sticking out, but with the visor it might be a good idea too...I'm afraid I'm not much help. :)
 

Moach

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While I thought the "old" G42 looked awesome, this is even better!

Regarding the cockpit, I think a more airliner or shuttle-like window arrangement would be better instead of having a canopy more or less sticking out, but with the visor it might be a good idea too...I'm afraid I'm not much help. :)

cool! thanks! :thumbup:

well, the visor is a must-have... it's just too cool to scrap IMO... :hmm:

perhaps a full droop-nose like the Concorde would now be possible, being that we now have a round cross-section up front... the reason the old G42 didn't have one is because i couldn't help that it looked like a duck (not in a good way) when lowered...

yet, the G42 visor won't work with a drop-nose... it'll have to be fully re-designed, since it was based on a fixed nose, rather than a moving one...

nevertheless, another advantage of this design is that additional fuselage sections "plugs" could be added, adapting the ship's payload/fuel capacity to specific needs as required :rolleyes:


i also think it looks cooler :lol: - and the longer tail boom prevents disastrous "wing-strike" if one pitches up too hard on takeoff/landing - which was a grim possibility with the old design
 
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Fabri91

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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't understand why it wouldn't work with a droop nose. Couldn't it be like the Tu-144?



Then again, not having a long pointy nose more or less removes the need for such a system, even though it should be mandatory just for the awesome-factor :)
But wether it will come with a droop nose or visor, both solutions sure look good.
 

Hlynkacg

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Very nice, reminds me of a sexier version of the space plane from 2001.

I'm also loving the variable wing geometry, and kudos to you for going with a "christie style" main gear. The wing-on-stilts arrangement of the XR5's landing gear always bugged me.

PS: Where do you plan to mount the docking assembly? In the nose a la the DG? or dorsally as on the XR5?
 
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Moach

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Very nice, reminds me of a sexier version of the space plane from 2001.

I'm also loving the variable wing geometry, and kudos to you for going with a "christie style" main gear. The wing-on-stilts arrangement of the XR5's landing gear always bugged me.

PS: Where do you plan to mount the docking assembly? In the nose a la the DG? or dorsally as on the XR5?

the docking port is shuttle-style, in the cargo bay... the nose is otherwise busy, with all the drooping-action and all...
plus, i never thought it would be wise to include seams and moving parts on a major heat-critical section such as the nose cone...

and - it's much more awesome to dock from the bay - so there it goes...

like the XR5, there'll be a switch to activate an alternative RCS mode, swiveling the Y-Z axes so the ship can be flown perpedicular to it's nose axis without much hassle...


and yeah, i too never really liked overly long main gear struts... they always look so flimsy... a shorter one is much easier on maintenance and whatnot... plus, it's less weight, since the torque-arm is reduced, and so is the load on the hydraulics


so i guess we are agreed, then - we're going for droop-nose! :cheers:

---------- Post added at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:25 PM ----------

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't understand why it wouldn't work with a droop nose. Couldn't it be like the Tu-144?



Then again, not having a long pointy nose more or less removes the need for such a system, even though it should be mandatory just for the awesome-factor :)
But wether it will come with a droop nose or visor, both solutions sure look good.

i meant the old visor... i counceived that so it would raise and cover up a DG-like canopy... it's designed to extend from a fixed platform (the nose)
the Concorde and TU144 noses are not fixed, so the visor must be redesigned to some extent
:thumbup:
 

Rtyh-12

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Wait wait wait wait. There's a reason the Shuttle isn't pointy. A pointy nose just directs the air to the wings, which at Mach 25 can get quite nasty. I admit it looks cooler, but it just isn't plausible.
 

Moach

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Wait wait wait wait. There's a reason the Shuttle isn't pointy. A pointy nose just directs the air to the wings, which at Mach 25 can get quite nasty. I admit it looks cooler, but it just isn't plausible.

well, i did not say it would be pointy :hmm: - that would prove not a wise idea as soon as the wings get ripped off and the fuselage imploded :facepalm:


pointy noses are good for transonic-supersonic flight, as they have low drag and improve the airflow onto the wings....

but we're going hyper-sonic -- that's really fast - a blunt nose, in that case has a larger area upon which the heat and pressure get distributed... which is also why we fly reentries with a stalled-wing attitude

most standard concepts of aerodynamics cease to apply at those speeds... air at mach > 5 is more like a wall of doom and gruesome fiery death instead... :lol:


but we still gotta lower the nose so the pilots can see forward, right? :rolleyes:


- actually, i read that that's the only reason the concorde has it's droop-nose... the aerodynamic effects of lowering it are pretty faint, but the pilots still need to be able to see the runway :blink:
 

Hielor

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but we still gotta lower the nose so the pilots can see forward, right? :rolleyes:


- actually, i read that that's the only reason the concorde has it's droop-nose... the aerodynamic effects of lowering it are pretty faint, but the pilots still need to be able to see the runway :blink:
You'd really only need to lower the nose for the terminal area operations on landing. During re-entry, you can do everything with the HUD and instruments, you don't actually need to see out.

Some kind of system that covers the cockpit area during re-entry and then droops for landing seems perfectly valid to me.
 

Hlynkacg

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pointy noses are good for transonic-supersonic flight, as they have low drag and improve the airflow onto the wings....

but we're going hyper-sonic -- that's really fast - a blunt nose, in that case has a larger area upon which the heat and pressure get distributed...

You could angle the scramjets so that the aircaft naturally flies slightly "nose high". The SR71 did this to take some of the heat load off the canopy and increase "its blunt" surface area without further compromising it's subsonic handling.
 

jangofett287

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I've had an idea! You could attach the visor to the top of the nose, so that when the nose rises into normal position, the visor naturally covers the front windows. If this makes the prospect of atmospheric flight a bit scary, you could always mould the visor into the top of the nose, and the have it able to rise up to shield the cockpit or something.then there's the possibility of mounting it on the top like the visor on a helmet, but I think I'm rambling a bit...
 

Moach

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(...)
Some kind of system that covers the cockpit area during re-entry and then droops for landing seems perfectly valid to me.

that's prettty much what i had in mind... :hmm:


You could angle the scramjets so that the aircaft naturally flies slightly "nose high". The SR71 did this to take some of the heat load off the canopy and increase "its blunt" surface area without further compromising it's subsonic handling.


they are angled! :thumbup:
the old G42 already had that - but not as you describe... opposite of the SR71, which has a negative nozzle angle - the G42, and thus the G42-200 have their ramcasters pointed up - towards their CoG..

the turbo-rocket engines, on the other hand (the upper nozzles) are opposingly angled - (nozzles up, intakes down)

so notice that their positioning above the initially "straight" inlet flow path is in accordance with the fact that when the ship is in turbine-mode (initial flight) it's AoA is the highest in all of the powered flight stages

that high AoA should favour the airflow towards the upper engine sections, therefore removing the need to forcibly "scoop" the air through an S-Duct of sorts when in flight...

when there's enough airspeed for ramcaster flight - the turbine intake gates close up and if all is done right so far, the AoA should be low enough to avoid an inlet stall on the ram-compressors.. but keep an eye on that pitch - i'll definitely account for such conditions in the simulation :lol:


as for the whole noose dropping... there might not be much need for that... still, a section of the upper cone should pivot forwards and down, clearing the view in front of the cabin for T/O and landing...
:cheers:

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------

I've had an idea! You could attach the visor to the top of the nose, so that when the nose rises into normal position, the visor naturally covers the front windows. If this makes the prospect of atmospheric flight a bit scary, you could always mould the visor into the top of the nose, and the have it able to rise up to shield the cockpit or something.then there's the possibility of mounting it on the top like the visor on a helmet, but I think I'm rambling a bit...

didn't see you there - sorry

yes - like the visor on a helmet - but the visor rolls up to cover the windshield from inside the nose instead of from outside... the original G42 did have such a piece - the last section of the visor was kept inside the nose, and "rotated" out over the windshield when extended...

this will be pretty much the same... but with actually less moving parts, much more reliable :thumbup:
 

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Very cool design, but if I understand correctly, the cargo bay seems to be on the straight section just after the cockpit right?

Wouldn't it be cooler if the engines were separated a little from the main fuselage, leaving room for a wider, longer cargo bay positioned closer to the CG?

Also, one note about the cockpit. 3 MFDs should be the bare minimum!! this way we can reenter with AeroBrake, Attitude and Surface all up, and not be switching between them ;)

Cheers
 

Moach

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Very cool design, but if I understand correctly, the cargo bay seems to be on the straight section just after the cockpit right?

Wouldn't it be cooler if the engines were separated a little from the main fuselage, leaving room for a wider, longer cargo bay positioned closer to the CG?

Also, one note about the cockpit. 3 MFDs should be the bare minimum!! this way we can reenter with AeroBrake, Attitude and Surface all up, and not be switching between them ;)

Cheers

well the SDK provides for up to 10 mfds... not sure whay one would need that many, but i was planning on at least 4 for pilot, 2 for F/O and two more on the bay console... is that good enough?


about the cargo going close to the CoG....

thing 1 - you'd need a very bulky crane, or an overhanging gantry to load cargo between the wings... not very convenient... the narrow nose section can be serviced under a much smaller rig

thing 2 - maintenance access to the bay can be done through a hatch inside the nose gear bay, or directly from the cabin itself

thing 3 - fuel mass goes away much more frequently than payload mass - which do you prefer to have farthest from the CoG - where changing mass bothers most?

thing 4 - where do we put the dock then? a "tunnel" would be needed to connect the cabin and the bay... quite a cumberance :hmm:

thing 5 - you could not extend a central bay using fuselage "plugs" - the forward positioning allows a modular construction for the payload section


...i could go on, but i think i make good point already, do i not?.... :lol:
:cheers:
 

Izack

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This looks fantastic (admittedly better than the previous '100' series.)

A little bit of 2001:ASO Orion mixed with Concorde, the space shuttle and something straight out of my childhood fantasies. :)
 

Moach

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This looks fantastic (admittedly better than the previous '100' series.)

A little bit of 2001:ASO Orion mixed with Concorde, the space shuttle and something straight out of my childhood fantasies. :)

cool! thanks!:cheers:

funny thing you know... some of you have mentioned all these craft that this design brings to mind, but no-one brought up the one that i actually derived the concept from - the Skylon :lol:

then add a bit of CRJ-900, a tail from the A330, the wings from the G42-100, rudder from Concorde, and whetever else this devious mind can cobble up... :blink:

it's not gonna be black tho... probably... unless someone repaints it so :tiphat:


next up, i'm gonna brain around some cockpit layouts... lots of MFD's fun fun fun! :thumbup:

---------- Post added 03-15-11 at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was 03-14-11 at 09:57 PM ----------

ok...

what about this for a cockpit?



it's a very intuitive layout, based on modern airliner cockpits...

notice the dotted lines outside the main windows - that's where the visor windows would be when it's raised...

i got the visor all figured out too... it's pretty much like that on the concorde, but it covers the sides of the cockpit as well when it's up, then it rolls down and forward to retract into the nose fairing

only the pilot side has flight controls, that because - there's no co-pilot, actually... instead, the right seat is occupied by the flight operations engineer, which is mostly busied by trying to keep the engines from exploding and all...


that's not a final concept... stuff may be changed when i get to modeling that... but i finally realised the importance of having a solid idea BEFORE i actually start pushing vertices around.... knowing what to do is always a good thing :hmm:


cheers!
 

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Very nice cockpit, I like it :thumbup:
 

Moach

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Looks nice to me.
What do you use to make the blueprints?

that would be flash CS5 :thumbup:

i like using it to just draw stuff... great tools :cheers:

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

ok... here's a schematic of the planned visor assemby...

it's quite simple actually - two fewer panels than the old G42 had, look:




two panels, the aft one rolls up and down to cover the cockpit, the fore one just lowers itself out of the pilots field-of-view

at low airspeed, a vortex caused by a small flange (not shown) on the forward edge of the visor fairing should create an aerodynamic "bubble" around the uncovered area, preventing turbulent air penetration of the visor compartment...
at higher speed however, this effect is bound to break...
approaching mach 1 with the visor down should result in most certain and very embarassing disaster :thumbup: - be sure to have it extended shortly after wheels-up

once out of the atmosphere, it's safe to lower it back down again and enjoy the view :rolleyes:


:cheers:
 
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