Ethnic Conflict

joeybigO

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How about Switzerland?

who provides guards to the Vatican?

There is no such animal as neutrality, you are either for or against.
IIRC, someone on another topic was talking about Lichenstein, or another country, that IDER, was supposed to be "neutral" and got taken by Hitler in about a couple of hours.

One of the most prominent reasons for tribal wars starts out as religion, example: jihad, the crusades and countless other "wars". Most other wars start out because they get greedy and want more land, e.g. Napoleon, Hitler.

The point is that if we just leave each other ALONE we can all just "get along" or co-exist. There is no point to having all the land, if Georgia want's to jack up the price of the fuel coming inward, so be it. No reason to go fighting about it. OPEC raised the price of oil to an astonishing rate, you don't see the US going after them (leave IRAQ ALONE!!!)

I like Thunderchickens response, just because someone else is "different" doesn't mean you need to go knocking the crap out of them, just means that they are different.
 

Ghostrider

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How about Switzerland?

But we have a form of institutionalized inter-ethnic warfare in the form of military service. Ask anyone who has witnessed an exercise between troops from Tessin and "zucchini" (german-speaking Swiss) and you'll know what I mean. :lol:

Roman empire does not exist.

The Roman Empire lasted for 500 some years. Its influence is felt even now. The EU will be lucky to survive 50 more years, and will be at best a footnote in history.
 

jedidia

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In the current system of conflicting values, when an ethnic minority is at or above a certain size -- a size that varies depending on the cultures and polities involved -- the kind of conflict you see all around the borders of the Slavic world, for instance, happen.

This is not entirely correct. It doesn't take an Ethnic minority to produce trouble. Bosnia is a good example, where there actually is NO ethnic majority. You have a third croats, a third Bosnians and a third Serbs... And they have ethnic tensions to spare. In my opinion, Ethnic Heterogenity inside one nation is a major factor, it doesn't really matter if there is a majority or not.

I disagree. I think tribalism is genetically programmed into upright apes.

Still, there is the fact that in Bosnia (it's the place I know best, so most of my examples are taken from there) you have no relevant genetic differences between ethnic groups. They define their ethnicity mostly by religion. I don't disagree with tribalism being a factor, however I strongly doubt that genetics effectively have to do with it.

If everyone has their needs met and their survival is not threatened, why should they care that the fellow over there is a different color/sounds funny/wears a different hat?

Several reasons: The "Others" have something you don't, even if you don't need it. The "others" have a different understanding of morale, being a depriving influence in your culture. The "others" are of different religion, thereby enemies of God. Finaly, the "others" are a constant threat to your well-being. It's a complicated mix of feeling superior, inferior and afraid, and it can show up even if everything is "perfect".

How about Switzerland?

Nice example, but I'd have to agree with Jarvitä that it is hardly universal.

In Switzerland a combination of several factors that are not neccesarily common enabled a peacefull coexistence, even cooperation.

First, you could divide Switzerland in three major ethnic groups, if you wanted to. Every swiss however will STRONGLY opose dividing swiss population into ethnicities, allthough it technicaly might be correct.

So, there are the "German"-speaking swiss, the French-speaking swiss and the Italian-speaking swiss. As you see, their major difference is language. This and some differences in mentality are the only difference a swiss will admit.
The composition of Switzerland today is voluntary. These regions joyned up. They where not annected. They are all of the same religion (allthough two denominations, which is actually the reason for the only civil war in switzerland so far. Yes, we had one too!)
Next, Siwtzerland has a very decentralised gouvernement. It is so decentralised that we don't even need a rule that there has to be a representative of each in the major executive organ (I can't remember our last italian-speaking representative... sure there was one once, but it's a rare occurance). This is because every canton, and even every town can wing their laws themselfes to a certain extent. Not a small extent, e.g. we have different educational systems in allmost every canton (they're now trying to unify this though, I think it's majorly because they want to get their grades EU-compatible).

And not least important, Swiss define themselfes majorly by nationality. You're Swiss, that's that. Plus, we got so used to each other.

Now, with the huge increasement in muslim population, interesting patterns start to show. We're not used to them. Allthough many of them are good swiss citizen by now, they don't really get accepted as such. The german swiss can handle the french swiss allthough they might barely understand each other. A German Swiss talking with a bosniak who speaks a good swiss german with some accent in it is not really accepted as a Swiss. They don't "belong" here. The french and the italian speakers do.
It is interesting to read newspapers: A Swiss youth from Neuchatel (french speaking) might commit a crime, the general sentiment is "the youth of today is getting worse...". Take an ex-yougoslavian, third generation, Swiss pasport since birth, everything there, the sentiments will be "These damn foreigners!"

Switzerland is currently undergoing a change, a distinctian into "swiss swiss" and "foreign swiss", with the later not really accepted as Swiss allthough they they might have been born here and living here all their lives. This shows how much Swiss, despite of different languages, consider themselfes "Swiss"... and not much to it. You can hardly speak of "different ethnicities" in a situation like that. Ethnicity gets a matter where people that do not usually belong to switzerland (i.e. their place of origin is not within swiss borders as defined in the last 400 years) enter the stage, and we're having the same trouble as everyone else: we fear for our morale, our religion (big point that, way bigger than one might suspect from the outside), our economy, our jobs, our way of live, we fear for switzerland "as we know it". Which is, in my opinion, exactly the major contributing factor to ethnic tensions.

Ask anyone who has witnessed an exercise between troops from Tessin and "zucchini" (german-speaking Swiss) and you'll know what I mean. :lol:

Ironicly, we call you "the russians" ;)
 

ar81

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You realise that if Britain (and to a lesser extent, France) hadn't had the empire then Europe would probably be speaking German just now?
The empire provided a lot of troops for the Brits, and fought very bravely.

I know. What is certain is that war achieved less in WWII than diplomacy achieved to form EU in recent years. I was not questioning courage, I was questioning the effectiveness of war and how it is a divisive technique. With divisive techniques (like war) you are unlikely to unite.

By splitting atom, you are unlikely to unite it.
 

Urwumpe

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its the same problem with the definition of a real German here. We have Italian immigrants from the 1950s, who are so perfectly integrated, that you need to know their background to know, they are not from here.

Still, when a German German stabs a woman (like lately happened), the people are worried about what happened to him that he can do something so unbelievable. When a reporter would find out, that he had an immigrant background, the reaction will be "damn foreigners".

But the problem is: You need to be reminded to something so abstract to remember they are foreigners. I know Turkish people, who still have their Turkish passport, who can speak far better German as many native Germans. Unless you know their name and social background, you wouldn't notice it.

And that's what I mean with: It isn't natural. Kids don't care about ethic borders until you teach them, that these are important.

And when you repeat it often and often enough, how criminal immigrants are, and now they are stealing our jobs, you will produce hatred among those, who are frustrated - or just aggressive or just stupid. Even if the reality is already that, that immigrants founded successful companies and created more jobs as they required themselves. We just like to please ourselves with the thought, we are something better - maybe as criminal as they are, but we are doing less criminal crimes.
 

ar81

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The Roman Empire lasted for 500 some years. Its influence is felt even now. The EU will be lucky to survive 50 more years, and will be at best a footnote in history.

War: Hitler "united" Europe for less than 6 years.
Diplomacy: EU is united and has more than 6 years of existence.

Roman empire ruled in a time where asimetry was too big in a world that was not prepared for them.
 

Urwumpe

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I know. What is certain is that war achieved less in WWII than diplomacy achieved to form EU in recent years. I was not questioning courage, I was questioning the effectiveness of war and how it is a divisive technique. With divisive techniques (like war) you are unlikely to unite.

That is sure questionable. It depends on who you ask. Germany sure lost the war. And returned even more powerful afterwards. Britain won the war, but also lost it's empire in the years afterwards. France was a big power after the war again. At least in their own eyes. Japan lost it all, but became one of the most powerful economics afterwards. The USA have never been as powerful as after WW2. And the USSR got really united because of WW2.

War is not automatically bad. At least not for the world. For individuals, war might be bad. And other individuals will profit from war.

By splitting atom, you are unlikely to unite it.

By splitting the right atom, you can produce more energy, than by fusing two of it together. Separation is often better as a forced unity. And sometimes uniting can be profitable. It depends on the situation.

That's why I had chosen Switzerland as example: It is not united as nation because it has always been so. But because it was profitable for them. The Baltic states on the other hand had been forcefully united - and actually improved their situation by far, after they had separated again.


-----Posted Added-----


Roman empire ruled in a time where asimetry was too big in a world that was not prepared for them.

Wrong. The world was very prepared for Rome and the victories for Rome has never been easy. They had one advantage over all others: They learned faster and had no problems dropping established traditions, if it helped them. And they used both war and diplomatics very intelligently - better as many of their rivals.

But not all. The failed to conquer the Germanic territories.
 

Thunder Chicken

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That is a good post :)

Aww, shucks...I'm touched. Thanks! :)

I suppose that we all get attached to our tribes, considering our families and most everyone we know may be associated to that tribe. I am an American, and I like to see America do well, but I don't begrudge those in other nations their desire to see their tribes do well too.
 

ar81

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That is sure questionable. It depends on who you ask. Germany sure lost the war. And returned even more powerful afterwards. Britain won the war, but also lost it's empire in the years afterwards. France was a big power after the war again. At least in their own eyes. Japan lost it all, but became one of the most powerful economics afterwards. The USA have never been as powerful as after WW2. And the USSR got really united because of WW2.

Germany came more powerful, but divided. By the time it united people have a different view of war. France might be big power, but its colonies are independant. Britain also got colonies independant. Japan is a power, but the Great Sphere of Coprosperity is no more. I do not deny any honors to the greatness of those countries, but world values changed. French revolution values were not present in the era of ancient Rome.

The age of empires was replaced by french revolution values and independence, freedom, human rights.

War is not automatically bad. At least not for the world. For individuals, war might be bad. And other individuals will profit from war.

The problem is when your sons are in the frontline to make other people rich.

By splitting the right atom, you can produce more energy, than by fusing two of it together. Separation is often better as a forced unity. And sometimes uniting can be profitable. It depends on the situation.

By killing someone you won't create energy to return people to life.

That's why I had chosen Switzerland as example: It is not united as nation because it has always been so. But because it was profitable for them. The Baltic states on the other hand had been forcefully united - and actually improved their situation by far, after they had separated again.

Convenience is more powerful that military occupation. It is cheaper too.

Wrong. The world was very prepared for Rome and the victories for Rome has never been easy. They had one advantage over all others: They learned faster and had no problems dropping established traditions, if it helped them. And they used both war and diplomatics very intelligently - better as many of their rivals.

But not all. The failed to conquer the Germanic territories.

So yes, the world was not prepared for them, except Germany of course.
 

Urwumpe

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Germany came more powerful, but divided. By the time it united people have a different view of war. France might be big power, but its colonies are independant. Britain also got colonies independant. Japan is a power, but the Great Sphere of Coprosperity is no more. I do not deny any honors to the greatness of those countries, but world values changed. French revolution values were not present in the era of ancient Rome.

The french revolution had nothing to do with the values of enlightenment. Enlightenment happened at the same time as the french revolution, but had only little impact on the majority. The people wanted only very simple things: Get rid of the king. And had not been able to agree to a common cause after the king was gone. It failed in a very french and tragic way. And after a short experiment with a terror regime, returned to the safe haven of monarchy.

The age of empires was replaced by french revolution values and independence, freedom, human rights.

Wrong. The age of empires has not even ended yet. You need to be blind, to be able to ignore, that many people still dream of large empires. Often enough build these dreams on military force.

The problem is when your sons are in the frontline to make other people rich.

That is a problem. But sometimes, your sons are in the frontline for making sure, other people don't get rich by killing those, who can't fight.

By killing someone you won't create energy to return people to life.

No, and by not killing somebody else, you risk the death of others. Who fights, can loose. And who does not fight, has already lost.

Convenience is more powerful that military occupation. It is cheaper too.

Does only work, if you can find such a solution. The Gauls did not feel very convenient with Rome, and needed to be conquered. Without the Gaul resources, Rome would have split years earlier.

So yes, the world was not prepared for them, except Germany of course.

Germany was also not prepared for them. They just managed to do two important things:

- Had no resources to promise to the romans, that they wanted. The romans had better places to conquer left.

- Caused enough trouble with ambushes, that the romans decided to hide between two major rivers and a complex wall system called Limes.
 

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I know. What is certain is that war achieved less in WWII than diplomacy achieved to form EU in recent years.

Now pray tell, how can you even compare the two efforts? Why don't you turn in the Napoleonic Wars as well? The EU is not, despite naive claims, based on diplomacy or goodwill but on economic grounds. There is no casus belli at the moment between EU countries, and there has not been one for the last 50+ years. Moreover, for a good while after WW2 no European nation could afford a war on european soil - especially with the Warsaw Pact ready to pick up the pieces of the contendants. It's not that Europeans have become all peaceful and enlightened, they simply can't afford a major conflict. Despite what you may have garnered from Tinseltown stuff, wars do not break out because of the "eeeeeevil arms merchants" or some other crap. There are sound reasons - economical and political - to get into the fray.
 

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If ethnic conflict is a biological inevitability, please explain the global spread of AIDS.

I'm glad Greg brought up Chimpanzees already, because I think it serves a valuable point. As irrational creatures who love to rationalize, we impose meaning in ways that justifies our position. The chimp is a great example. We're more closely related to Bonobos than the common chimp, however we look to the common chimp to explain our aggression and rationalize "the way it is."

But how do Bonobos resolve social tension?

The real problem is in responding to violence and aggression. The Gandhi approach only works if the oppressor has a strong sense of personal morality. Other wise violence only breeds more violence.

You'll also find that fundamentalism historically is directly a response to empire. Islamic fundamentalism didn't enter the equation in Sub-Sahara Africa until European colonialism was well established. Similarly, the ethnic tensions and conflicts there while already existing were exasperated by colonialism. Empire requires division of the conquered. Violence is the normal response to violence. The rest is imposing meaning in personally meaningful ways.
 

Urwumpe

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But how do Bonobos resolve social tension?

This is a family friendly forum with US children possibly reading this! How can you even dare mentioning Bonobos! :censored: Gorillas are PC.
 

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I think I may have been misunderstood by some. When I talk about "ethnicity", I am not talking about "race" -- not at all. And I don't really think there's an important genetic aspect of ethnicity, except insofar as genetically primed human behaviors that key off of things like external simple physical appearance are triggered by perceptions of physical differences.

My point is that there is good evidence, both biological and historical for the proposition that natural human behavior centered around perceptions of in-groups and out-groups can lead to violence in the right circumstances, and that our political vocabulary that seems to place an equal emphasis on democracy and national or ethnic self-determination has some inherent internal inconsistencies that make resolving these conflicts difficult.

If ethnic conflict is a biological inevitability, please explain the global spread of AIDS.

It's simple, really ;) Seriously, just as there are strong clusters of genetically-determined human behaviors that lead to xenophobia, there are also clearly some natural "xenophilic" behaviors. And also, since the definition of ethnicity seems to be largely a cultural artifact, individual expression of xenophobic reactions will vary greatly between cultures and individuals.

In other words, some cultures are less xenophobic than others, and some individuals are less xenophobic than others within their own native cultures.

Personally, I've always been a xenophile. Thus my spending a great deal of my life working in international jobs, and spending a very large amount of my life immersing myself in first one and then another culture quite foreign to my own.

I'm glad Greg brought up Chimpanzees already, because I think it serves a valuable point. As irrational creatures who love to rationalize, we impose meaning in ways that justifies our position. The chimp is a great example. We're more closely related to Bonobos than the common chimp, however we look to the common chimp to explain our aggression and rationalize "the way it is."

But how do Bonobos resolve social tension?

I'd be very curious to know the basis for your assertion that we're more closely related to bonobos than chimps. I'm not aware of that -- especially since the genetic distinction between chimps and bonobos is very, very small, it might be correct to say that we're equally closely related to both.

Interestingly, we aren't the first to point to the distinction between chimps and bonobos in a political context:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-08-08.html

Interestingly, chimps currently outnumber bonobos in the wild by something like 10-1:

bonobo population:

http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/pan_pani.htm#Population

chimp population

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/apes/chimp/

Both figures are gross estimates, of course, and both populations have suffered devastating habitat loss (all American imperialists' fault, of course), so it's hard to say whether the pre-modern comparative evolutionary success of the two different kinds of societies can be seen in their relative sizes.

If the question is whether the natural human is naturally violent and tribal, well, I'd just look to history and prehistory of our own species. Looks pretty grim to me.

The real problem is in responding to violence and aggression. The Gandhi approach only works if the oppressor has a strong sense of personal morality. Other wise violence only breeds more violence.

I agree with the first thing you've said here, but in that context, the last thing seems like a non-sequitur. I love to point out that Gandhi's strategy worked primarily because his opponents were members of a lawful society that could be shamed into following its own principles. I'd love to see how he'd have faired against Hitler or Stalin. Violence seems like the only option when facing that kind of opponent.

You'll also find that fundamentalism historically is directly a response to empire. Islamic fundamentalism didn't enter the equation in Sub-Sahara Africa until European colonialism was well established. Similarly, the ethnic tensions and conflicts there while already existing were exasperated by colonialism. Empire requires division of the conquered. Violence is the normal response to violence. The rest is imposing meaning in personally meaningful ways.

I find that to be so incorrect that I can't imagine where it comes from. Take the example of Al Andalus. The original Muslim conquerors of Iberia were relatively less fundamentalist than others Muslims at the time. Guess what happened to them? They were driven from power by other, more fundamentalist Muslims. All without any assistance from the United States, since the USA wouldn't exist for 800 years ...

Wahab a reaction to imperialism ... in deepest desert Arabia 160 years before Lawrence? How?

... just to cite two examples off the top of my head.
 

Urwumpe

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GregBurch: The numbers of Bonobos and (ordinary) Chimps are also not comparable, because both settle in different habitats. The Congo river separates both species and was once the reason for the small differences to develop. You can't tell which one is really more successful.

The same with humans... just let a US citizen try to survive in Germany. We are already adapting to our habitats ;)
 

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GregBurch: The numbers of Bonobos and (ordinary) Chimps are also not comparable, because both settle in different habitats. The Congo river separates both species and was once the reason for the small differences to develop. You can't tell which one is really more successful.

You're right -- the differences in habitat are too great to draw anything like a very meaningful conclusion, and I'm not really basing my thesis that there is some element of ethnically-defined, genetically driven in-group/out-group tension in human affairs by direct link to chimp behavior. But I think the fact that such kinds of behavior are common in the animal world makes the thesis generally more plausible.
 

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Greg,

I find myself in agreement with you on several fronts here. I invoked Muslim fundamentalism in Sub-Saharan Africa specifically because I wanted to avoid the Wahabs (as do most ****es and just about everyone not a Wahab). I'm baffled by much of Arab culture, and the fundamentalism there I agree isn't connected to empire - but I do hold out that it's relevant in other areas. West Africa in particular.

Also, I think your example of Iberia is a particularly good one, though it raises a couple of extra historical weird facts. The Moors invited the Moroccans to assist against the Christian expansion, and the Moroccans were mortified by the lives the Moors were living. But here's where it gets a bit strange - 1492 marks the year the Moors lose Iberia. Flash forward 100 years and you have the Moroccans taking Timbuktu - using captive Iberian musketeers. For me this seems like empire perpetuating empire. But I'm not sure that the Moroccan example is totally removed from a reaction to empire expansion. In this example, it comes from two directions. Christian European and simultaneous North African Caliphate driven.

As far as US responsibility for the plight of Africa - credit where it's due. Europe still has much to do with the current situation there, and more and more the Chinese have things to answer for. Especially in the bogus medications that are currently being sold. I'm positive there are more Cameroonian bananas for sale in Germany than here in the States.

I brought up the Gandhian problem for the same exact reason you've suggested. For years I've been trying to negotiate passive-resistance to the Frantz Fanon approach (Les Damnés de la Terre) and have reached the same conclusion. Gandhi worked because it was with the Brits. It wouldn't have worked against Hitler or Stalin, so yes - there are times that violence seems to be the only response to violence.

I'm going to rise to the challenge and find you some links on the Bonobos. On several occasions I've read that we're just a little more related to them than the Common Chimp, and I find it both provocative and significant for where we find ourselves in 2008. The quote I'm hoping to find is from an Anthropologist who was lamenting the discovery of the Common variety before the other, specifically because of the way we've identified ourselves to these cousins. If memory serves, the genetics show we're several hundred thousand years closer to the Bonobos than the other. (It would help explain the tension between monogamy and desire, wouldn't it?)

I must admit I hadn't really factored xenophilia into the AIDS question, but I'm convinced most humans would rather sleep with someone that's identifiably "other" than kill them (but getting them to admit it might be a bit more difficult.) The rating system of our movies says a lot about this popular sensibility.

edit: what, we've got built in censorship programs here now? The **** above should read s-h-i-'i-t-e.
 

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Nomad, that's a very fair response -- just when I'm about to write you off as a pomo academic enthralled to Edward Said, you go and write something fairly reasonable.
 

tl8

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edit: what, we've got built in censorship programs here now? The **** above should read s-h-i-'i-t-e.

Always have, guess no one has wanted to type s-h-i-'i-t-e before
 
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