Can humans make it to Mars?

Andy44

owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Addon Developer
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
7,620
Reaction score
7
Points
113
Location
In the Mid-Atlantic states
Good point, BH. But thinking in the long term, humans will need to colonize at least one other world at some point just for survival purposes. Mars seems like the best candidate at this point, and you gotta start somewhere.

About an underground base; that's not something you need super smart robots for. You just need something to drag the hab module into place and then bulldoze dirt on top of it. Expensive, sure, but not much more difficult than what the MER's are doing right now. Plus, you need to do this on the Moon as well, so it gives you a good place to practice the techniques and sequence.
 

Bullethead

New member
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
212
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Wakefield, LA
Website
www.stormeaglestudios.com
Good point, BH. But thinking in the long term, humans will need to colonize at least one other world at some point just for survival purposes. Mars seems like the best candidate at this point, and you gotta start somewhere.

I don't know. I think we've got a better shot at terraforming Venus into something pretty close to Earth than we do of ever doing anything worthwhile on Mars. As I hear it, we can't terraform Mars because, being geologically dead, it'll never hold onto an atmosphere worthy of the name. Thus, any Martian settlement will always be in tunnels, so it'll never be able to support many people at all. And even if you can breed people to survive the low gravity without constant medical attention, does creating a new species of low-gravity mole-men really count as human survival? I hear seals are descended from bears but they're no longer bears, they're seals, due to living in a radically different environment.

But the whole lebensraum justification for colonization seems pretty infeasible anyway. Even if Mars and Venus both were already ideal clones of Earth in every way, we'll never be able to move enough people to either one quickly enough to make any difference here on Earth. So it all comes down to the old "not enough lifeboats" or "Noah's Ark" scenario. How do you decide who gets to go and who goes down with the ship?

No nonhuman species collectively cares about the survival of the species. Instead, the individual members of the species care about their own personal survival and that of their offspring. And I daresay most people feel the same way when it comes right down to it, no matter how much some people talk about "humanity's survival" when they're not currently fighting for their own.

So how do you sell the colony project when it only benefits the microscopic fraction of humanity whose progeny go off to it? Why should I pay taxes for some huge project that has exactly zero benefit to me, my descendants, or anybody else I care about? If my whole tribe's being written off, why should I care if yours is, too? If you're rich enough to buy your own ticket outta here, feel free. Just leave me with what I've got to enjoy as best I can however much longer Spaceship Earth stays afloat.

About an underground base; that's not something you need super smart robots for. You just need something to drag the hab module into place and then bulldoze dirt on top of it. Expensive, sure, but not much more difficult than what the MER's are doing right now. Plus, you need to do this on the Moon as well, so it gives you a good place to practice the techniques and sequence.

I can think of 2 good reasons to go to the moon. First, as Heinlein foresaw long ago, if you own the moon you own the Earth. It's the ultimate military high ground, and it's not going to be long before we see that demonstrated. Who will get there first? I think that's one of the main reasons why there's such a rush to get to the moon again, now that longterm occupation seems feasible.

The other reason is that perhaps the moon's got a lot of helium-3. This, I understand, is easier to make fuse than deuterium. If so, then strip-mining the moon for helium-3 might actually provide a real benefit to the majority of those on Earth. I could easily support such a project. Besides, the moon's close enough to be worked like an offshore oilrig, say 1 month there, 1 month here.
 

Xantcha

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
203
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Ahh.. terraforming.. This is about changing environment of entire planet, right?

Why not just terrafomr Earth then? It is more suitbale for humans than Mars or Venus. Travelling to Earth is so much cheaper and it really could benefit from terraforiming :)

But really - Space flight is one thing, it is known and relatively adavanced technology. But planetary scale eco-manipualtions... That's sooo sci-fi, so magical.
 

Bullethead

New member
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
212
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Wakefield, LA
Website
www.stormeaglestudios.com
Ahh.. terraforming.. This is about changing environment of entire planet, right?

Yup, and naturally wiping out any natives in the process. I'm sure there'd be objections on that ground, but if it's a question of human survival, who cares about alien bacteria? That stuff might make you sick anyway ;).

Why not just terrafomr Earth then? It is more suitbale for humans than Mars or Venus. Travelling to Earth is so much cheaper and it really could benefit from terraforiming :)

As I understand it, Earth's about as terraformed as it can get. There are always going to deserts, etc., on the detail level, due to the atmospheric and oceanic currents caused by where the continents and mountains are.

But really - Space flight is one thing, it is known and relatively adavanced technology. But planetary scale eco-manipualtions... That's sooo sci-fi, so magical.

There are many people today who sincerely believe that this isn't magical at all, but is in fact a fact of everyday life going on right now. You know, that whole global warming thing you might have heard about. In fact, if you go around claiming that people are altering Earth's climate on a global scale, and do it loudly enough, you can get a Nobel Science Prize and be proclaimed a world expert on the subject, even if your only educational background is political science and journalism. :p

Now, before I stir up a global warming argument, I'm not saying the world's not warming up. Of course it is, if for no other reason than the sun burns a little hotter every single day as a natural part of its life cycle. But I still wonder how many SUVs the dinosaurs were driving for it to be so much hotter back in their day :p

Anyway, terraforming Venus really doesn't seem that hard. You just seed the atmosphere with tailored bacteria and algae that eat what's there now and excrete what we want to end up with. There might be several intermediate steps in the process, and it would definitely take a long time, but it should ultimately work. And you'd end up with something roughly Earthlike, including inhospitable pockets here and there based on the configuration of Venusian land masses and the peculiarities of its climate. But I figure you could live pretty well on most of it.
 

Xantcha

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
203
Reaction score
0
Points
0
So changing atmosphere is easy? Why not clean air on earth then? It's not that clean in industrial centers and big cities, anyway. I don't think it's easy.
 

Bullethead

New member
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
212
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Wakefield, LA
Website
www.stormeaglestudios.com
So changing atmosphere is easy? Why not clean air on earth then? It's not that clean in industrial centers and big cities, anyway. I don't think it's easy.

They've already figured out how to make ocean bacteria eat oil spills. I figure it can't be much longer before they can tweak airborne bacteria to eat smog.
 

joiz

New member
Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
116
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Switzerland
But more seriously, no matter how fast, high quality and all that the robots get, a human will be way more inspiring, also, we can get to mars in ten years for five billion a year if you do it a la mars direct.
but another proposal was made by von braun after apollo, using NTRs, two fully reusable ships go to mars drop two MEMs, bring em back, and then a few saturn launches to refuel and get a new MEM and the next crew and youre off again. of course after a while we'll have a reusable shuttle, that properly designed (not like the old bucket we have now) and that is cheap to launch so we can have these mars shuttles constantly going to and from mars.

and about terraforming, to terraform venus, you need more water than there is in the entire of earths oceans. to terraform mars, you need some GM algeae and three guys to make sure they are doing their job. but of course, in the future, well be able to move ice comets and smash em into Venus to start terraforming it. and what is a better place to go out to the asteroid belt form (and farm all the food and oxygen and propellant from)? its mars. so we get two birds with one stone (actually three, due to the ressources of the asteroid belt) by colonizing mars!
 

James.Denholm

Addon ponderer
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
811
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Victoria, Australia
Submariners know how that feel. And they survive the mission.

Debatable, pattersoncr probably has permanent phscological problems. :p

My 2.13743721 Aussie cents: What about a large, self-sustaning, non-reentry ship, with little landers and so on, gets to Mars, "unloads" the base-making equiptment using the landers, which also take off and re-rondevous with the Mothership (similar to how a ship unloads using cranes), and, finaly, if something goes fubar, the mothership has enough fuel for the return trip.

EDIT: Chuck Norris sure could.
 
Top