News Germanwings Flight 4U9525 (Airbus A320) crash in Southern France (24 March 2015)

[Codz]

I have to dispute this. There is a fire axe that is kept on the flight deck. I doubt that there is an axe in the cabin!

How else would passenger disputes get settled?:lol:

 

[Urwumpe]

How else would passenger disputes get settled?:lol:

By snakes?

 

[fort]

It seems that actually the fire axe is always in the cockpit and there is a "pied-de-biche" in the "cabine" ( outside of the cockpit ).

 

[jedidia]

In other words, if the axe was used, we have to re-examine the situation based on possible reasons for the pilot to be in the passenger cabin with an axe...

Let's just say some of them would make locking the door to the cockpit look like a very reasonable thing to do :lol:

 

[C3PO]

How else would passenger disputes get settled?:lol:

Ask them to settle the dispute outside. (It works!!)

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 PM ----------

... and there is a "pied-de-biche" in the "cabine" ( outside of the cockpit ).

That's a crow-bar, right?

 

[Urwumpe]

German news report that the co-pilot was certified unfit for work on the day of the crash. The police has found torn certificates by a doctor in the apartment of the co-pilot which suggest that the co-pilot was keeping his illness secret from his co-workers and employer.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

As for the crash axe (not fire axe): there might not necessarily be a crash axe on the flight deck. That is, like some things, airline specific. There might be just a smoke hood instead. In this case the crash axe is stowed in a box in the forward galley usually. Would explain how the pilot was able to try to crash the door with the axe, if he tried so.

The crash axe was my first thought once I heard one pilot was locked out.

 

[Urwumpe]

In addition: A suicide note was not found by the police in the apartment of the co-pilot or the house of his parents. Right now, the case is highly atypical.

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ----------

All German airlines agreed to introduce the two-person rule in aircraft cockpits, after only a few airlines had previously implemented it, despite it not being mandatory by European regulations.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

All German airlines agreed to introduce the two-person rule in aircraft cockpits, after only a few airlines had previously implemented it, despite it not being mandatory by European regulations.

There is not much to be said against it. But also not a lot for it. At least it's not costly and realizable immediately. But I don't think it will increase safety really. It's one of those "we feel much safer now" things. If someone wants to do stupid things, he will do it. Not only a petite flight attendant/purserette can be knocked out without issues.

Just leave the fg door open as it was the case for decades. My two cents.

 

[Urwumpe]

Not only a petite flight attendant/purserette can be knocked out without issues.

Sorry - but first of all, women are a whole lot tougher than men. You never got into a fight with a women yet, right? One advice: Don't. Don't even think about it. Especially stay away from female Israeli soldiers.

Next: Knocking somebody out is still much harder than not having to knock somebody out at all.

And finally: Get your head free of the stupid suicide theories. Just think about heart attacks or strokes. Or fumes. Having a second reliable person, even if its no pilot, in the cockpit is IMHO a great improvement of safety.

 

[kamaz]

I have to dispute this. There is a fire axe that is kept on the flight deck. I doubt that there is an axe in the cabin!

JAR-OPS 1.795 Crash axes and crowbars

(a) An operator shall not operate an aeroplane with a maximum certificated take-off mass exceeding 5,700 kg or having a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 9 seats unless it is equipped with at least one crash axe or crowbar located on the flight deck. If the maximum approved passenger seating configuration is more than 200 an additional crash axe or crowbar must be carried and located in or near the most rearward galley area.

(b) Crash axes and crowbars located in the passenger compartment must not be visible to passengers.

Per wikipedia, the only A320-class a/c this would apply on is A321 with 1 class sit configuration (220 pax).

 

[RGClark]

German news report that the co-pilot was certified unfit for work on the day of the crash. The police has found torn certificates by a doctor in the apartment of the co-pilot which suggest that the co-pilot was keeping his illness secret from his co-workers and employer.

If a doctor "certifies" fitness, you would think that would be reported to the employer and to the responsible government agencies.

Bob Clark

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

JAR-OPS 1.795 Crash axes and crowbars

(a) An operator shall not operate an aeroplane with a maximum certificated take-off mass exceeding 5,700 kg or having a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 9 seats unless it is equipped with at least one crash axe or crowbar located on the flight deck. If the maximum approved passenger seating configuration is more than 200 an additional crash axe or crowbar must be carried and located in or near the most rearward galley area.

(b) Crash axes and crowbars located in the passenger compartment must not be visible to passengers.

Per wikipedia, the only A320-class a/c this would apply on is A321 with 1 class sit configuration (220 pax).

That's for a second crash axe. If there is just one crash axe it might also be carried in a galley instead of the cockpit on some airlines. If the pilot of flight 4U9525 tried to crash the door with the axe it was very likely not stowed in the cockpit.

Unlikely that passengers were calm as stated by Mr. state prosecutor in case the pilot used the crash axe to get into the cockpit while the airplane was descending a little bit faster than usual halfway through on the flight over the Alps...

 

[kamaz]

9-11 was only possible because of two things:

(a) passengers have been taught not to resist the hijackers

(b) shooting down a hijacked airliner was not considered an option

Both of these circumstances no longer exist, so 9-11 style attack can no longer be repeated.

Observe further that this is the second time reinforced cockpit doors have enabled hijacking by a crew member (third if you count MH370). The first was Ethiopian 702:

But at some point during the flight, the co-pilot locked his colleague out of the cockpit and took over the plane.

He radioed Geneva to request permission for an emergency refuelling, before setting off an alarm indicating that the plane had been hijacked.

Passengers have said he threatened to crash the plane.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26222674

So the question is why no lessons have been taken from Ethiopian 702.

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/

 

[Ripley]

What I don't understand (IF this suicide plot is true, which we don't know yet) is why the co-pilot didn't leave a spoken message, a sort of testament, an explanation for what he was going to do. He had plenty of time in the cockpit.

He was a pilot, he knew that soon after the crash SAR teams would've searched for the black boxes, he knew for sure how they work and the 30 minutes continous recording loop...I mean, you are desperate for some reason, you want to kill yourself, how could you do it without leaving a message?

That's why I'm more for a heart attack, or some kind of incapacitation...

 

[kamaz]

That's why I'm more for a heart attack, or some kind of incapacitation...

A person with a heart attack is going to have a different breath pattern. This is why heart attack has been ruled out.

 

[DaveS]

A person with a heart attack is going to have a different breath pattern. This is why heart attack has been ruled out.

Yes and I think you're trying to apply logic to an illogical act.

 

[Artlav]

I mean, you are desperate for some reason, you want to kill yourself, how could you do it without leaving a message?

Maybe you are desperate for a reason that implies the suicide must not be recognised as suicide, like trying to scam the insurance to cover your family's debts or something to that effect.

Still, i find it hard to believe that someone can just sit there in front of the controls and breath normally while a mountain is getting bigger and bigger in front of you.

 

[Frilock]

What I don't understand (IF this suicide plot is true, which we don't know yet) is why the co-pilot didn't leave a spoken message, a sort of testament, an explanation for what he was going to do. He had plenty of time in the cockpit.

He was a pilot, he knew that soon after the crash SAR teams would've searched for the black boxes, he knew for sure how they work and the 30 minutes continous recording loop...I mean, you are desperate for some reason, you want to kill yourself, how could you do it without leaving a message?

That's why I'm more for a heart attack, or some kind of incapacitation...

As was stated before, the act of killing oneself is not a logical, well thought out process (despite what tv would have you believe). In fact, if the story is to be believed that he set the autopilot to crash the plane, he very well might have thought he wasn't going to go through with it, but did anyway.

ETA: Also, you assume he would have someone to give a message to?

 

[kamaz]

Still, i find it hard to believe that someone can just sit there in front of the controls and breath normally while a mountain is getting bigger and bigger in front of you.

With their eyes closed?