News Elon Musk wants to put millions of people on Mars.

[APDAF]

With regards to the matter conversion, yes that is helpful, but that assumes that a colony would be growing crops that need conversion to a useful form. One would think that a martian greenhouse would only contain crops fairly useful to the colony.

Animals produce their own fertiliser which will increase yields.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Animals produce their own fertiliser which will increase yields.

But which animal would give you the highest yield for the trouble of keeping it alive?

 

[Hlynkacg]

Clothes could probably be synthetically made, although you may have a point there in terms of what would be cheaper. Not all clothing is animal based though (cotton, flax, polyester, etc.).

With regards to the matter conversion, yes that is helpful, but that assumes that a colony would be growing crops that need conversion to a useful form. One would think that a martian greenhouse would only contain crops fairly useful to the colony.

Synthetically made out of what?

Keep in mind that we are not talking about an isolated outpost with regular supply runs to the home culture or a mission of finite length.

We are talking about transplanting civilization.

Just because a plant is useful to the colony doesn't mean that 100% of it's mass is useful. What do you do with the rest of a the cotton plant after you've converted it's seed pod to textiles? The stalks and leaves are toxic to humans but goats or sheep will convert that waste mass into wool, milk, meat, and fertilizer.

NASA actually did a bunch of studies on this back in the 70s on self-sufficient colonies and generation ships. I'll link once I'm back on my home computer. One of the more interesting conclusions was that over a long enough mission timeline (one measured in decades rather than years) certain types of livestock actually constituted a significant mass savings as they negated the need for certain types of consumables and and occupied less volume than an equivalent stockpile of stores.

The break even point was just over a year in most cases. Any longer than that and it became cheaper in terms of mass, energy, and volume to pack chickens and chicken feed than it was to pack an equivelant amount of eggs.

I think the real point here is that the amount of livestock off-planet will be much lower per capita than on earth. Theres just not enough room, consumables, or reason to do it on a large scale.

All this had made me think though, it would be interesting to do a sort of Orbiter Greenhouse project, modelling what gets grown, & what it produces. Maybe Ill try that someday.

Perhapse, the types of livestock will certainly be different. More Caprinae few if any Bovinae. Also expect to see a lot of fish as well. Algae tanks are tend to be more efficient O2 processors than free-standing plants and there's no reason not to have the tanks serve dual purpose as an aquarium / seafood buffet.

 

[jedidia]

Am I really the only one that notices that no lifestock doesn't mean a vegetarian diet?

It means a vegan diet, for crying out loud! Have fun with that!

 

[Hlynkacg]

Am I really the only one that notices that no lifestock doesn't mean a vegetarian diet?

It means a vegan diet, for crying out loud! Have fun with that!

I know right?

It also means no wool, leather, or down-based products, and a lot of waste plant-matter piling up in your garden.

But which animal would give you the highest yield for the trouble of keeping it alive?

Caprinae (Sheep / Goats), and chickens mostly. If you're using a algae tank to process your air you can also throw in fish.

 

[T.Neo]

From Mr Musk's twitter;

Also, I am not the kale eating overlord of Mars (altho kale has its moments) http://www.thejanedough.com/peta-mars-vegan/ …

To be super clear, I don't wish to (nor could I) mandate anything about a Mars Colony. Am just working on the tech to get people there.

It seems PETA's attention-grabbing about making Mars vegan has rubbed off on the media.

 

[Alfastar]

I think we begin to look wrong.

I mean: Why we have a discussion about a wild plan that SpaceX will make a colony on Mars, but meanwhile the Dragon is still in a test phase to become a manned spacecraft. And then we also discus about that it gonna use a Falcon-Heavy, but meanwhile it must still do successful its first test launch! Why we got a discussion about this?

Why we take today all headlines to send something manned to the red planet so serious? Look, not to mean bad, but everybody can theoretic making plans to go to mars, and can have some nice concepts and text. But it still stays by plans. When there are very serious sources about things as this, then we can careful talk about a manned mars mission.

Elon is doing at this moment to let run SpaceX good, with more private funds, and not with a mars mission.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

I think we begin to look wrong.

I mean: Why we have a discussion about a wild plan that SpaceX will make a colony on Mars, but meanwhile the Dragon is still in a test phase to become a manned spacecraft. And then we also discus about that it gonna use a Falcon-Heavy, but meanwhile it must still do successful its first test launch! Why we got a discussion about this?

Why we take today all headlines to send something manned to the red planet so serious? Look, not to mean bad, but everybody can theoretic making plans to go to mars, and can have some nice concepts and text. But it still stays by plans. When there are very serious sources about things as this, then we can careful talk about a manned mars mission.

Elon is doing at this moment to let run SpaceX good, with more private funds, and not with a mars mission.

If the plan is already laid out before the hardware is ready, less time will be spent catching up later. Besides why wouldn't you want to speculate about this sort of thing? Its exciting!

 

[Cosmic Penguin]

I think we begin to look wrong.

I mean: Why we have a discussion about a wild plan that SpaceX will make a colony on Mars, but meanwhile the Dragon is still in a test phase to become a manned spacecraft. And then we also discus about that it gonna use a Falcon-Heavy, but meanwhile it must still do successful its first test launch! Why we got a discussion about this?

Why we take today all headlines to send something manned to the red planet so serious? Look, not to mean bad, but everybody can theoretic making plans to go to mars, and can have some nice concepts and text. But it still stays by plans. When there are very serious sources about things as this, then we can careful talk about a manned mars mission.

Elon is doing at this moment to let run SpaceX good, with more private funds, and not with a mars mission.

Because he is The Omnipotent Iron Man Elon. He provides every spaceflight fan that turns to worshiping SpaceX a bucket of Kool-aid and a pony. :hail:

OK seriously that's because SpaceX has definitely written a new chapter in the history of commercial efforts in spaceflight (even when Orbital was the first pioneer back in the 1990s) and has managed to roll on and on with certain successes (unlike many other start-ups of the same period). And their philosophy is just sexy - look at how SpaceX employees, veterans and rookies, stay on working projects for very long hours with just their wit to change the course of spaceflight (well that means many will leave in a few years, but there are a lot of excited newbies waiting for these positions)! No wonder it, like Google and Apple, has managed to attract a huge number of fans dreaming skywards and beyond, even if most of them are pie-in-the-sky and even Elon (and me) will disapprove of them.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Because he is The Omnipotent Iron Man Elon. He provides every spaceflight fan that turns to worshiping SpaceX a bucket of Kool-aid and a pony. :hail:

OK seriously that's because SpaceX has definitely written a new chapter in the history of commercial efforts in spaceflight (even when Orbital was the first pioneer back in the 1990s) and has managed to roll on and on with certain successes (unlike many other start-ups of the same period). And their philosophy is just sexy - look at how SpaceX employees, veterans and rookies, stay on working projects for very long hours with just their wit to change the course of spaceflight (well that means many will leave in a few years, but there are a lot of excited newbies waiting for these positions)! No wonder it, like Google and Apple, has managed to attract a huge number of fans dreaming skywards and beyond, even if most of them are pie-in-the-sky and even Elon (and me) will disapprove of them.

Ummm, you know we have seen his picture before, and it isnt even relevant to the question... :lol:

And isnt he the dragon man, instead of the iron man?

---------- Post added at 06:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------

I know right?

It also means no wool, leather, or down-based products, and a lot of waste plant-matter piling up in your garden.



Caprinae (Sheep / Goats), and chickens mostly. If you're using a algae tank to process your air you can also throw in fish.

Just to nitpick the argument a little, although I do see your point. (love the aquarium idea)

Bringing sheep to mars might make sense, but how can you graze them effectively (free space, grass?). Leather really doesnt fit the argument though. I mean seriously, youre going to ship a cow to mars??? I can just imagine the smell in the transport container after they open it too...
I would imagine shipping the leather on its own would make more sense than that. What exactly would you mean by down based products though?

 

[Hlynkacg]

Just to nitpick the argument a little, although I do see your point. (love the aquarium idea)

Bringing sheep to mars might make sense, but how can you graze them effectively (free space, grass?). Leather really doesnt fit the argument though. I mean seriously, youre going to ship a cow to mars??? I can just imagine the smell in the transport container after they open it too...
I would imagine shipping the leather on its own would make more sense than that. What exactly would you mean by down based products though?

1: Grazing isn't strictly required, no reason that they can't be fed from a trough using kitchen scraps and roughage from your green house. Goats in particular are very good a growing fat on human trash and an intelligent farmer will leverage that to his benefit.

2: You can use sheep's hide to make leather, no cows required unless of course you want steaks as well.

3: The smell? we call that brown gold :lol:. Methane and nitrates will be incredibly valuable commodities on any world without a native biosphere.

Free fall will be a problem but we already knew that, and in theory whatever solution we figure out for the crew / colonists would in turn be applied to the livestock as well.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

1: Grazing isn't strictly required, no reason that they can't be fed from a trough using kitchen scraps and roughage from your green house. Goats in particular are very good a growing fat on human trash and an intelligent farmer will leverage that to his benefit.

2: You can use sheep's hide to make leather, no cows required unless of course you want steaks as well.

3: The smell? we call that brown gold :lol:. Methane and nitrates will be incredibly valuable commodities on any world without a native biosphere.

Free fall will be a problem but we already knew that, and in theory whatever solution we figure out for the crew / colonists would in turn be applied to the livestock as well.

Touche :yes:

Only thing I would mention is that I think methane pockets can be found underground on mars? I would suppose that having animals available would help to reprocess soil nutrients for a time, but the cycle wouldnt be perfect, requiring some outside additions to the ever diminishing stock available.

I guess a hot commodity for off-planet colonies is going to be dirt, or fertilizer at least.

 

[N_Molson]

A livestock "byproducts"-powered rocket. Now that would be something. :lol:

About leather, I'm a bit doubtful... Martian leather jackets sure would be cool, but else than that... Nowadays, almost everything - including clothing - is made of petroleum derivatives. Of course, there's not a drop of oil inside Mars, that's a point...

 

[Hlynkacg]

A livestock "byproducts"-powered rocket. Now that would be something. :lol:

About leather, I'm a bit doubtful... Martian leather jackets sure would be cool, but else than that... Nowadays, almost everything - including clothing - is made of petroleum derivatives. Of course, there's not a drop of oil inside Mars, that's a point...

...Which is why I asked bruce where he was planning to get his clothes :lol:

I imagine that wool, fleece, and leather products would be be a major component of the colonist's "creature comforts". It's not like any one is really going to ship a chair from Mars to Earth to be reupholstered, and a high quality wool blanket in a chilly hab-block would be worth it's mass in gold.

 

[C3PO]

Free fall will be a problem but we already knew that

Free fall cows????? I'm in :thumbup:

 

[RGClark]

A livestock "byproducts"-powered rocket. Now that would be something. :lol:
About leather, I'm a bit doubtful... Martian leather jackets sure would be cool, but else than that... Nowadays, almost everything - including clothing - is made of petroleum derivatives. Of course, there's not a drop of oil inside Mars, that's a point...

Petroleum is derived from ancient life compressed underground over millions of years. So then it does become an interesting question if Mars contains petroleum.


Bob Clark

 

[Spaced]

Petroleum is derived from ancient life compressed underground over millions of years. So then it does become an interesting question if Mars contains petroleum.


Bob Clark

You need an awful lot of ancient life to later metamorphose into fossil fuels. I reckon if Mars ever experienced a Carboniferous period we'd be able to tell by now.

 

[Urwumpe]

Free fall cows????? I'm in :thumbup:

Free fall cow tipping sounds more interesting. :lol:

 

[APDAF]

Bringing sheep to mars might make sense, but how can you graze them effectively (free space, grass?). Leather really doesnt fit the argument though. I mean seriously, youre going to ship a cow to mars??? I can just imagine the smell in the transport container after they open it too...

Who says you have to take the actual animal to mars when a frozen embryo is a lot easier to transport.

 

[Urwumpe]

Who says you have to take the actual animal to mars when a frozen embryo is a lot easier to transport.

Because nature has millions of years more experience in the final assembly of animals.

What do you think should happen to the embryo then? Shed some warm water on it and stir?