News Elon Musk wants to put millions of people on Mars.

[Urwumpe]

I would take the choice of going to Mars or Baffin Island. I find tremendous appeal in the idea of getting away from Earth, simply because society here reflects stagnation, stupidity, & arrogance. Currently being in my late teens, I would say the odds of surviving this century are fifty-fifty at best, given the challenges an Earth based society will have to deal with. Just my thoughts :shrug:

if I had the choice between a 6 month night-shift on an antarctic research station, or Mars... I would choose the antarctic. Both places are hostile, but on the antarctic, you can survive with less technology to keep you alive.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

if I had the choice between a 6 month night-shift on an antarctic research station, or Mars... I would choose the antarctic. Both places are hostile, but on the antarctic, you can survive with less technology to keep you alive.

Good point, but... the actual benefits of living on mars as opposed to extreme areas of Earth would be much higher. From a societal standpoint, a Mars colony would necessitate being independent from Earth, which I think would prioritize actual priorities that are ignored on Earth.

For example, a mars society would be able to leave behind things such as

-Segregation of almost any type. What are they going to do, send the one person to live alone in his own hab module? Many people I know in North america would distrust say, you or Artlav because youre European. A mars colonist would laugh at an idea as ridiculous as that.

-Business control of projects where none is needed whatsoever. Given a group of people to complete a task containing engineers, scientists, technicians, leadership specialists, and ... a clerk, who in their right mind would think that the clerk should be in charge of the project? I can guarantee that noone would be going to mars simply based on their ability to run an excel spreadsheet, but that about sums up the training that business students are given today.

-Economies built around waste. Modern economics on earth is so strongly built around this that we dont even consider it strange anymore. A mars colony would have be the complete opposite of that given the cost of any goods on mars.

-Societal priorities. I love sports as much as the next person, but the ability to play a childs game very well or act does not warrant a value to society 10, 100, or a 1000 times that of someone who does actual work.

Anyways, I feel bad for dragging this thread really off-topic, but I think those reasons are quite important to state. Colonizing mars might be extremely expensive, but staying on Earth might be even more costly.

 

[Urwumpe]

For Mars there is only one reason, that currently does not exist: you would need chances on mars, that are not possible (for you) on Earth. Being the first on Mars? Sure if you like glory. But heroes usually die early.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

For Mars there is only one reason, that currently does not exist: you would need chances on mars, that are not possible (for you) on Earth. Being the first on Mars? Sure if you like glory. But heroes usually die early.

Id rather not be "the first man on mars". I find that rather pointless, and self-serving. I think living a life there would be much more rewarding, so I would love to be able to settle there.

I think it might be better if we merged this discussion into a separate thread, sorry for the hijack

 

[T.Neo]

I would take the choice of going to Mars or Baffin Island. I find tremendous appeal in the idea of getting away from Earth, simply because society here reflects stagnation, stupidity, & arrogance.

There are a whole seven billion people on this planet. Don't you think condemning their culture in one fell swoop is a pretty bad move? Of course there's stagnation, stupidity and arrogance, but that is not all that defines us. And one can always make the choice of trying to reduce those factors in society and combat them. Or it could be as simple as simply avoiding them. You never know- perhaps the people living on Baffin Island are pretty decent folks.

And Earth is not simply a matter of society. There are plenty of things you can do on Earth that you cannot do on Mars, beyond socialise. Like see a rainbow in person, or fall asleep to the sound of raindrops. Or go outside without the saliva boiling off the surface of your tongue. Or marvel in the beauty of the natural world, beyond rocks and dust- even if it is as simple as seeing a bird fly past your window. Or simply standing outside in the calm evening air, enjoying the beauty of clouds lit orange by the sunset, in front of our gigantic, shining moon.

Some often say that the problem with humanity is that we too often think of Earth as the center of the universe. I think the problem is that we too often think of Earth as the entire universe. In many ways relevant to us, it is. But the fact of the matter is that Earth is a planet, just like any other. In many respects it may be a small and insignificant one, but in others, it is pretty exceptional. It is an island of life and love hanging in the nothingness. And it's our world.

So far, it is our only one.

 

[Hlynkacg]

Being the first on Mars? Sure if you like glory. But heroes usually die early.

Reminds me of the Navy/USMC defininition of hero.

*Dead* :lol:

 

[MattBaker]

Unless you find a technology that allows you to a) send hundreds, maybe thousand tons of stuff on Mars for a really low price or b) to make the colony self-sustaining (and with self-sustaining I mostly mean planting potatoes into iron oxide dust...) it could become quite hard to make a colony of 100 persons until 2100, not playing the downer here.

"Elon Musk wants a mars colony with 80,000 people"
I want my own delta-glider
(frankly, if my wish comes true, the first one, whatever...)

 

[Hlynkacg]

I need to dig up the NTRS link but I've got a AAP era (late 60s) NASA study that estimated the mass of a 100 man self-sustaining moon base at approx 17,500 tonnes. Plan included shipping soil and livestock for farming.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Some often say that the problem with humanity is that we too often think of Earth as the center of the universe. I think the problem is that we too often think of Earth as the entire universe. In many ways relevant to us, it is. But the fact of the matter is that Earth is a planet, just like any other. In many respects it may be a small and insignificant one, but in others, it is pretty exceptional. It is an island of life and love hanging in the nothingness. And it's our world.

So far, it is our only one.

That I would agree with. :thumbup:

 

[RGClark]

I need to dig up the NTRS link but I've got a AAP era (late 60s) NASA study that estimated the mass of a 100 man self-sustaining moon base at approx 17,500 tonnes. Plan included shipping soil and livestock for farming.

Surprised it included livestock. I would think it would be self-evident such a culture would be vegetarian. Also with hydroponics no need to ship soil.

Bob Clark

 

[T.Neo]

That I would agree with. :thumbup:

Would you not agree that Earth is a rather nice places to live? That's part of my point- when one thinks of Earth as simply another planet, one realises that Earth is rather decent, as planets go.

I would think it would be self-evident such a culture would be vegetarian.

Why exactly would it be self-evident?

 

[RGClark]

Would you not agree that Earth is a rather nice places to live? That's part of my point- when one thinks of Earth as simply another planet, one realises that Earth is rather decent, as planets go.

Why exactly would it be self-evident?

Mostly because of the large tracts of land required for livestock. And because of the fact it is unnecessary.

Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

It's quite difficult to overstate the environmental poverty of Mars compared to Earth. Nothing short of an utter planetary catastrophe, on a scale unprecedented in geological history, could make Mars and Earth comparable in terms of real-estate value.
If you have the sort of money necessary to emigrate to Mars, it would most probably be better spent on improving one's own lifestyle on Earth than moving to Mars. The wealthiest people in some of the worst places on Earth don't spend their money to emigrate to Baffin Island, after all.

Some interesting questions arise in this discussion:

1.)Do you think the Moon or Mars will be colonized within this century?

2.)Which is more likely to happen first, the Moon or Mars?

3.)If you think the colonizations will take place, do you think it will only be by governments financing the colonizations?


Bob Clark

 

[Hlynkacg]

Mostly because of the large tracts of land required for livestock. And because of the fact it is unnecessary.

At the time it was determined that Chickens(or rather eggs) were a more efficient method (both in terms of mass and volume) of providing protien than trying to grow soy and other substitutes.

While hydroponics has come a long way I'm not sure if it's come far enough to overcome the difference.

Besides fresh eggs with breakfast would be good for morale

Some interesting questions arise in this discussion:

1.)Do you think the Moon or Mars will be colonized within this century?

2.)Which is more likely to happen first, the Moon or Mars?

3.)If you think the colonizations will take place, do you think it will only be by governments financing the colonizations?

1: Yes

2: Moon, by virtue of proximity though I'm not sure.

3: Governemnts will not finance the colonization, they may have permenant outposts but the first serious colonists are probably going to be dreamers and weirdos with the resources to burn.

I suspect that the Mormons will conquer Mars long before the US or China does.

 

[T.Neo]

Mostly because of the large tracts of land required for livestock. And because of the fact it is unnecessary.

I would not say that livestock is unecessary, there are many benefits that can be gained by having animal products on the menu.

As for large tracts of land, that depends on what density you can keep the animals (which very high densities at the expense of the animal's living conditions). But livestock does not necessarily mean beef or pork- it could be more 'unconventional' animals, such as fish or certain types of invertebrate.

1.)Do you think the Moon or Mars will be colonized within this century?

No. I think it is fairly unlikely, due to reasons I have described previously. On the other hand, decently sized human operations on solar system bodies within the century are certainly possible, provided that the developments and dedication required to make them happen are not stifled.

2.)Which is more likely to happen first, the Moon or Mars?

Moon is far easier to reach. Mars is more scientifically interesting in some respects, is most often espoused as the site for a new home, and holds more potential for things like terraforming. Moon is more often discussed as a site for space-based infrastructure and resource extraction.

Both have their supporters, both their detractors. Often it seems more of an issue of an ideological split than logical decision between the two.

3.)If you think the colonizations will take place, do you think it will only be by governments financing the colonizations?

Space colonisation will not take place without a return of some sort, regardless of whether it is performed in whole or in part by government agencies or private entities, with subsidies or oversight, etc. There are multiple ways to go about things on Earth, space isn't really any different.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

I would not say that livestock is unecessary, there are many benefits that can be gained by having animal products on the menu.

As for large tracts of land, that depends on what density you can keep the animals (which very high densities at the expense of the animal's living conditions). But livestock does not necessarily mean beef or pork- it could be more 'unconventional' animals, such as fish or certain types of invertebrate.

Well, live animals require a bit more space, & maybe more importantly, a greenhouse on mars could easily be supplied with CO2 from the atmosphere, producing more Oxygen than it consumes as compared to the vice versa of a, er... Martian barnyard :lol:

I think the bigger issue would be exactly how to get the chickens there, but I do like the sound of eggs for breakfast Hlynkacg.

 

[C3PO]

But livestock does not necessarily mean beef or pork- it could be more 'unconventional' animals, such as fish or certain types of invertebrate.

Kangaroos in martian gravity? Now that would be awesome! :lol:

 

[T.Neo]

Well, live animals require a bit more space, & maybe more importantly, a greenhouse on mars could easily be supplied with CO2 from the atmosphere, producing more Oxygen than it consumes as compared to the vice versa of a, er... Martian barnyard

Greenhouses also need a proper gas mixture since plants, like animals, need proper partial pressures of specific gases (such as CO2, O2 and N2), though these partial pressures may differ from those required by, say, humans.

Humans and livestock can also survive in atmospheres with less pressure and more CO2 partial pressure than an Earth-typical atmosphere, which may not only make sustaining barns and suchlike easier, but assist the design of the entire habitat.

I think the bigger issue would be exactly how to get the chickens there, but I do like the sound of eggs for breakfast Hlynkacg.

It is a bit tricky, since it doesn't quite seem possible to ship eggs to Mars unhatched (though Moon might be easier). Launching eggs, on the other hand, seems to be possible; quail eggs have been launched for experiments on STS and Mir.

Kangaroos in martian gravity? Now that would be awesome!

No problem with that, just not a particularly logical livestock choice. But perfect for your Martian game reserves, once you get the climate up and running...

By unconventional livestock, think more about things like guinea pigs, quails, frogs, prawn or shrimp, oysters, or fish. Aquaculture can have the advantage of playing a role in a cycle to provide fertiliser for plants, if I recall correctly.

I'm feeling rather hungry now. Unique Martian cuisine... that'd be an interesting development... :hmm:

 

[MattBaker]

I think the problem with livestock is not the space it needs or how to get them up there, but the resources they need. You have to feed the animals with food that you could give humans as food as well (except for stuff like old corn plants) and especially with meat it gets really hard, you need more food to produce one kilo meat than eating one kilo of this food...
So, do I think a colony would be vegetarian? Yes, maybe not because they like it, but because it's too hard to provide enough meat for everyone, maybe you could get it as a special delievery on your spaceships
If they're vegan is another question and I think no, simply because you need non-vegan products and their minerals or it's easier like you pointed out with your chickens.

 

[T.Neo]

Food shipped from Earth would likely be more expensive than food grown locally, provided that the proper infrastructure has been set up and is operating (even if the food in question usurps more space and food mass than other products).

The entire point of livestock, of course, is that they transform stuff you don't (or won't) gain nourishment from, into stuff you will. It is a pretty valid system in many cases, but here, of course, the question is whether those feed sources are more efficient to grow in some respects than human-edible vegetables.

Think about it like this. In Elon Musk Super Wacky Falcon land, it's $150/kg to LEO. A Mars transfer is what, 4500 km/s dV from LEO? That makes the cost of getting something to a Mars transfer trajectory to something like $450/kg, and that's not counting the hardware needed to keep it edible during the transfer, or to land it on Mars, or the myriad of other costs involved. In the end you may well end up with a steak that's over $1000/kg.

Given that food can only be eaten once, but hardware can be used repeatedly, and hardware that can be used to manufacture more hardware can be used repeatedly to produce things that can be used repeatedly, I would much rather spend money on infrastructure that would enable me to grow my agricultural abilities on Mars (including more ability to grow livestock) than a one-off, hideously expensive Earth-steak.

 

[RGClark]

Amy Svitek in her Av Week blog implies that Elon Musk was intimating during his Royal Aeronautical Society lecture that the engine anomaly during the October Falcon 9 launch was a RUD(rapid unscheduled disassembly):

Falcon 9 RUD?
Posted by Amy Svitak 4:32 AM on Nov 26, 2012
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.a...f385Post:c973f72f-55d3-4374-b722-df31a8d333e6

I didn't get that from the lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wB3R5Xk2gTY

He seems to be neutral on the cause during the question and answer session. And also SpaceX has said it was not an explosion, which is what a RUD is.


Bob Clark