blane
Deep Space Operator
I've been lurking in this thread for a while now and I'm still missing
some considerations which I think are very essential.
First, I probably would be considered as someone who rather sides with
people who claim that there is intelligent life out there in our
galaxy, probably much more than we would imagine. On the other hand,
same kind of people might be disappointed by my rather loose
conception of "intelligent life out there".
To the risk of annoying some of you, but it's utterly neccessary to
define some things on the semantic level first, because without that
actually every statement about the probability of extra-terrestrial
life is meaningless. In the least we would need the definition of
"Life" and "Intelligence" (everything else, like "Civilization" can be
derivated from that rather straight forward).
"Life" is being easier to define in my opinion, although I would think
that most people (that includes most scientists, which I am not, btw)
would disagree with my definition, because they have a more
conservative view.
We all agree that everything that is part of the flora or fauna (i.e.
plant or animal) is alive. Furthermore most will probably agree that
entities like viruses and bacteria could be considered "life".
However, let's not forget that we can apply this only to Earth (simply
because we have not yet found any extra-terrestrial life, not even
bacteria so far) to compare. Therefore, to speculate about life on
other planets let alone in other stellar systems we would need a more
generic definition. I would suggest something like the following:
1. The entity has a life cyclus. (i.e. it will be "born" and will
"die". (Though I actually am not sure whether that is an
requirement but a limited span of life seems intuitive to me).
2. The creation/birth of the entity can be and is being reproduced.
3. The entity converts engergy in some way or another (which just
means that a life form needs some kind of metabolism)
There is probably more to add but I think these are the most important
attributes. But if we consider only those we can easily see that stars
and even planets meet all the criteria, too).
I think it's perfectly fine to say that our sun is a living being. But
is it intelligent?
This is far more complicated to define; we only have one value of
comparison which is human intelligence. But it would be arrogant to
claim that this is the highest or even only form of intelligence.
On our own planet we find forms of intelligence which are so alien to
us that we haven't even begun to understand them. The "collective
intelligence" of ants (even better: termites) are a good example. We
have no idea how the actual intelligence works there, but by
observation we can't deny there is one. What we don't understand is
their communication (as with most animals). And it seems
clear to me that the type of communication is a direct consequence
of the type of intelligence.
So if we wanted to verify whether stars are intelligent or not we
would need to figure out how their intelligence works. Or we could
even try to figure out how they communicate. But how can we possibly
do that, if we're not even able to understand ants?
See the perspective here -- if we consider ants as the lower life
form, stars would be a much higher life form and therefore possibly
completely out of our reach in means of understanding. Would it be a
boisterous to assume that solar flares are simply communication
signals?
This concludes my excursion to semantics and if I apply all this, I
must strongly consider that there could be intelligent life out there
-- even very close -- but we simply don't recognize it as such. Who
says that every intelligent life form will cast out "human-compatible"
radio waves?
We don't even need to reach as far out as stars; quite an amount of
scientiest speculate that life form on silicon is possible (or maybe
even other elements). I don't dare to imagine how intelligince and
communication of such entities might differ from ours.
Finally, and regardless of anything I wrote above a completely
different point I am not sure was mentioned in this context:
Even if I do believe that there is "human-compatible" (that is:
detectable), intelligent life in out galaxy, even as a "Civilization"
(actually this term required more semantics, but for the sake of
readbility I'll leave it now), I don't see it as an requirement to be
able to detect them at all.
Our galaxy is almost as old as the universe, something over 13 billion
years (in our frame of refernce). Humans being here let's say 1
million years give or take. But being "detactable" only for a decade
or so.
I don't believe a civilization has to remain "forever". I think it's
quite possible that humankind exists, let's say another 10.000 or
100.000 years (or even 1M years, it does not really matter) -- and
then "extincts". Important: Extinction does not neccessarily mean
annihilattion, but so many factors we don't know have a play in here.
What happens to humans that live on a different planet, a moon with
low-G or even an astoroid for 10, 100, 1000 generations? Will they
still be human? Will they still have "human-compatible" intelligence
(by our standards now). Will they still communicate in the classical
sense?
All this can be reasonably doubted. And if we define a rather lenient
window of "human-detactable" civilization level of let's say 1 million
years, that is still only a 1/13000 of the time our galaxy exists. So,
to detect another civilization on this level (providing it is human-
detactable in the first place!), we would need to hit the same time
window, too.
Well, that is my 2 cents, for what's it worth.
cheers,
snwcreah
some considerations which I think are very essential.
First, I probably would be considered as someone who rather sides with
people who claim that there is intelligent life out there in our
galaxy, probably much more than we would imagine. On the other hand,
same kind of people might be disappointed by my rather loose
conception of "intelligent life out there".
To the risk of annoying some of you, but it's utterly neccessary to
define some things on the semantic level first, because without that
actually every statement about the probability of extra-terrestrial
life is meaningless. In the least we would need the definition of
"Life" and "Intelligence" (everything else, like "Civilization" can be
derivated from that rather straight forward).
"Life" is being easier to define in my opinion, although I would think
that most people (that includes most scientists, which I am not, btw)
would disagree with my definition, because they have a more
conservative view.
We all agree that everything that is part of the flora or fauna (i.e.
plant or animal) is alive. Furthermore most will probably agree that
entities like viruses and bacteria could be considered "life".
However, let's not forget that we can apply this only to Earth (simply
because we have not yet found any extra-terrestrial life, not even
bacteria so far) to compare. Therefore, to speculate about life on
other planets let alone in other stellar systems we would need a more
generic definition. I would suggest something like the following:
1. The entity has a life cyclus. (i.e. it will be "born" and will
"die". (Though I actually am not sure whether that is an
requirement but a limited span of life seems intuitive to me).
2. The creation/birth of the entity can be and is being reproduced.
3. The entity converts engergy in some way or another (which just
means that a life form needs some kind of metabolism)
There is probably more to add but I think these are the most important
attributes. But if we consider only those we can easily see that stars
and even planets meet all the criteria, too).
I think it's perfectly fine to say that our sun is a living being. But
is it intelligent?
This is far more complicated to define; we only have one value of
comparison which is human intelligence. But it would be arrogant to
claim that this is the highest or even only form of intelligence.
On our own planet we find forms of intelligence which are so alien to
us that we haven't even begun to understand them. The "collective
intelligence" of ants (even better: termites) are a good example. We
have no idea how the actual intelligence works there, but by
observation we can't deny there is one. What we don't understand is
their communication (as with most animals). And it seems
clear to me that the type of communication is a direct consequence
of the type of intelligence.
So if we wanted to verify whether stars are intelligent or not we
would need to figure out how their intelligence works. Or we could
even try to figure out how they communicate. But how can we possibly
do that, if we're not even able to understand ants?
See the perspective here -- if we consider ants as the lower life
form, stars would be a much higher life form and therefore possibly
completely out of our reach in means of understanding. Would it be a
boisterous to assume that solar flares are simply communication
signals?
This concludes my excursion to semantics and if I apply all this, I
must strongly consider that there could be intelligent life out there
-- even very close -- but we simply don't recognize it as such. Who
says that every intelligent life form will cast out "human-compatible"
radio waves?
We don't even need to reach as far out as stars; quite an amount of
scientiest speculate that life form on silicon is possible (or maybe
even other elements). I don't dare to imagine how intelligince and
communication of such entities might differ from ours.
Finally, and regardless of anything I wrote above a completely
different point I am not sure was mentioned in this context:
Even if I do believe that there is "human-compatible" (that is:
detectable), intelligent life in out galaxy, even as a "Civilization"
(actually this term required more semantics, but for the sake of
readbility I'll leave it now), I don't see it as an requirement to be
able to detect them at all.
Our galaxy is almost as old as the universe, something over 13 billion
years (in our frame of refernce). Humans being here let's say 1
million years give or take. But being "detactable" only for a decade
or so.
I don't believe a civilization has to remain "forever". I think it's
quite possible that humankind exists, let's say another 10.000 or
100.000 years (or even 1M years, it does not really matter) -- and
then "extincts". Important: Extinction does not neccessarily mean
annihilattion, but so many factors we don't know have a play in here.
What happens to humans that live on a different planet, a moon with
low-G or even an astoroid for 10, 100, 1000 generations? Will they
still be human? Will they still have "human-compatible" intelligence
(by our standards now). Will they still communicate in the classical
sense?
All this can be reasonably doubted. And if we define a rather lenient
window of "human-detactable" civilization level of let's say 1 million
years, that is still only a 1/13000 of the time our galaxy exists. So,
to detect another civilization on this level (providing it is human-
detactable in the first place!), we would need to hit the same time
window, too.
Well, that is my 2 cents, for what's it worth.
cheers,
snwcreah