ORBITER MMORPG!!!!!!

BHawthorne

Simpit Builder
Donator
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
324
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Interesting ideas but, not wanting to drop out of nowhere and spoil the fun, let me share some thoughts on this issues:

Perhaps a MMORPG is too ambitious... A game requires a team of dozens of people to develop and takes years, as is much more complex that simulating one specific spacecraft.

Also, why use Orbiter if it doens't have any online features at all? The realistic physics it does provide don't bring much in order of possible game play.

If you need a 3D engine why not use the GoogleEarth API ? It comes with 3D terrain and buildings for Earth, Moon and Mars, supports any model you want, and runs inside a webpage controled by javascript. It looks as less work for me.

Now, I do like the idea of online spaceflight with some degree of reality, and if sometime in the future there's some need for any graphics or web related work for this project, I'd like to help (time permiting).

There are several reasons why I believe this to be a valid project to problem solve. The main reason is that of all the 3D client sims out there with a pre-established community and open development of add-ons Orbiter is the best suited when it comes to space flight simulation. Why should someone reinvent the wheel when Orbiter already has a well established community and the ability to make add-ons? MMO might be a bit too ambitious of a label. MO might be a better fit with what I mean. It's not like 2000 people are going to be logged into a server flying Orbiter at once. It might be more relevant to see a server cap at 64 ships at once. In the context of space flight that is a significant amount of ships flying around. Using Orbiter as a core for a multi-player add-on poses quite a few unique challenges that I look at as interesting in scope to tackle as a community project. Face and I have been debaing a few of the challenges posed the last few hours. It's interesting to see how answers for client time acceleration might work in relation to multiplayer and server mechanics.

---------- Post added at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

If a MMORPG is what's required why not just sign up to EVE Online?

The short answer is because Eve Online is full of sci-fi while Orbiter tends to be more sci-fact. Different target audience. Eve is all about things that can never be done within the bounds of regular physics. I've played Eve Online for years and that definitely not what I'm seeking to help reproduce here. Multi-player online in the context of Orbiter has a totally different mindset than Eve Online. What I seek here is plausiable multi-player spaceflight systems. There is nothing remotely plausible about Eve Online in the context of real-world spaceflight. ;)
 
Last edited:

garyw

O-F Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
Addon Developer
Tutorial Publisher
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
10,485
Reaction score
209
Points
138
Location
Kent
Website
blog.gdwnet.com
The short answer is because Eve Online is full of sci-fi while Orbiter tends to be more sci-fact. Different target audience. Eve is all about things that can never be done within the bounds of regular physics. I've played Eve Online for years and that definitely not what I'm seeking to help reproduce here. Multi-player online in the context of Orbiter has a totally different mindset than Eve Online. What I seek here is plausiable multi-player spaceflight systems. There is nothing remotely plausible about Eve Online in the context of real-world spaceflight. ;)

I played Eve online for 15 minutes and hated it. Even if a MMORPG of Orbiter was built I'd ignore it as I rather like my little sandbox universe. I use it to relax and mess around with space where as MMORPG tends to have people generally ruining my day....
 

BHawthorne

Simpit Builder
Donator
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
324
Reaction score
3
Points
18
I played Eve online for 15 minutes and hated it. Even if a MMORPG of Orbiter was built I'd ignore it as I rather like my little sandbox universe. I use it to relax and mess around with space where as MMORPG tends to have people generally ruining my day....

I have no expectations that a multi-player add-on would be universally accepted, because everyone has different reasons for gaming. Just as you prefer the solitude it allows, others might enjoy the social interaction within a common environment they both enjoy. This obviously wouldn't be for everyone although everyone's opinions should be welcomed on the subject. I have always been a social gamer and like the challenges posed by a persistant world server that can be enfluenced by others.
 

Face

Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
581
Points
153
Location
Vienna
I played Eve online for 15 minutes and hated it. Even if a MMORPG of Orbiter was built I'd ignore it as I rather like my little sandbox universe. I use it to relax and mess around with space where as MMORPG tends to have people generally ruining my day....

What if the proposed system would allow for your sandbox, too? Let's say a set of little sandboxes where you can invite someone over to your sandbox...

I too think MMORPG is not the correct word/abbreviation for it. Just Multi-Orbiter perhaps? :)

regards,
Face
 

Arrowstar

Probenaut
Addon Developer
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
1,785
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Out of curiosity, would using the OMP codebase perhaps speed development? We already know it works (as computerex, Face, and a few others demo'd a bit ago). This is obviously contingent on Face as the OMP dev, but just a thought.
 

4throck

Enthusiast !
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
3,502
Reaction score
1,008
Points
153
Location
Lisbon
Website
orbiterspaceport.blogspot.com
What if the proposed system would allow for your sandbox, too? Let's say a set of little sandboxes where you can invite someone over to your sandbox...

I too think MMORPG is not the correct word/abbreviation for it. Just Multi-Orbiter perhaps? :)

regards,
Face

I agree, it looks as a simpler aproach and more usefull... For example, a World of 2001 sandbox could be fun :), even in solo mode if the universe is persistent. I'd very much appreciate to have a pilot's log in Orbiter :thumbup:!

Now, I'm all for reusing existing add-ons (supposing they work in a multiplayer environment), if still used within the scope of the standard Orbiter distribution / versions. I think there might be problems if this development ends up being a different version of Orbiter altogether and some permissions might be needed.
 

EtherDragon

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
106
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Ellensburg
The newest aproach would be to base a server-client setup around the new Orbiter2009 (going through release Candidates now)

One of the things that O2009 has is a Non-Graphical Orbiter application - that could concievably be the basis for a server-client style orbiter setup.
 

BHawthorne

Simpit Builder
Donator
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
324
Reaction score
3
Points
18
The newest aproach would be to base a server-client setup around the new Orbiter2009 (going through release Candidates now)

One of the things that O2009 has is a Non-Graphical Orbiter application - that could concievably be the basis for a server-client style orbiter setup.

If going that route I'd prefer using OGLA graphic client because of some issues still present in the Orbiter2009 builds in relation to multi-display. Orbiter 2009 still isn't DX9 complaint as far as I can tell. That breaks the ability for me to use it.
 

DarkWanderer

Active member
Orbiter Contributor
Donator
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
213
Reaction score
83
Points
43
Location
Moscow
If going that route I'd prefer using OGLA graphic client because of some issues still present in the Orbiter2009 builds in relation to multi-display. Orbiter 2009 still isn't DX9 complaint as far as I can tell. That breaks the ability for me to use it.
Isn't OGLA actually based on Orbiter2009?..
 

BHawthorne

Simpit Builder
Donator
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
324
Reaction score
3
Points
18
Isn't OGLA actually based on Orbiter2009?..

Yes, but using just Orbiter2009 itself won't work for my hardware configuration. Personally, I'd have to use Orbtier2009+OGLA. That's totally outside the scope of the thread though.
 

Face

Well-known member
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
581
Points
153
Location
Vienna
Taking his idea and posting something on OrbiterWiki right now. I'll edit this post when I'm done

EDIT:
http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Multi-player

I took your initiative and made a new page titled "Orbiter MMORPG" there. I hope you don't mind that I moved your content to it in order to steer clear of the multiplayer overview page.
In addition, I've put up BHawthorne's vision, too.

regards,
Face
 

EtherDragon

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
106
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Ellensburg
If going that route I'd prefer using OGLA graphic client because of some issues still present in the Orbiter2009 builds in relation to multi-display. Orbiter 2009 still isn't DX9 complaint as far as I can tell. That breaks the ability for me to use it.

The idea would be to use Orbiter2009_NG as the host application for the server. (NG is No Graphics - and requires a separate graphics module to be loaded if you want a 3d view.)

As long as each client runs Oriter2009 (either NG w/OGLA or O2009 with the built in graphics) some kind of multiplayer module hooked to the server based on O2009_ng could work.
 

sfpilot

New member
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
i was just looking around the wiki and found this project. It sounds like a cool project. if you need any extra people on quality control, i'm happy to help.

for MMORPG though, you might want to concentrate on ease of use for newbs. For instance you shouldn't have to do a thing to the routers to get it to work.

i also might suggest implementing the idea in UML (Unified Modeling Language) first. this would help with software design, and make implementation of the design, very straight forward.

as for quality control, i saw it in the wiki, and you might want to change the description a bit. on the wiki it sounds more like a beta tester. Quality control is the role that makes sure that the code is written in a logical manner, is fully commented, and can be understood by any programmer. i have some experience in this role and would be very happy to help you out on this role.
 

JamesG

Orbinaut
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
511
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Afghanistan? WTF!?!
Random thoughts:

Simply embedding this Forum and its chat into Orbiter would go along way towards giving it a MMO feel.

Sync will always be a problem if you allow time compression. Less if you make the ships able to pull steady 1G acceleration, that will make transits in real time tolerable, at least for the inner solar system.

If the above embedding were done, it would give operators something to do during that long trip to Jupiter.

Just imagine all the "salvage missions" of rescuing/recovering newbies who blow transfer orbits or crash onto bodies.
 

Blacklight

New member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
In space ?
Website
www.myspace.com
Heck with an MMORPG, I would just be satisfied with the ability to link up with a couple friends via direct IP connect and fly scenarios together.

As for an MMO concept, the free flight sim, FlightGear, which seems like the "Orbiter" of atmospheric aircraft sims, has a bunch of servers where the players can just log into and fly together with LOTS of other people, and there are usually at least 10-20 people flying around there all the time.

I think they solve the issue of other people flying addons that you don't have, by simply using a generic plane design for the unknown model. Maybe you can study their system a bit and see how it works for some ideas.

http://www.flightgear.org/

and the live map of their multiplayer servers so you can see where everyone's flying real-time:
http://mpmap02.flightgear.org/

Simply embedding this Forum and its chat into Orbiter would go along way towards giving it a MMO feel.
That's a great idea for an MFD. When flying, if I minimize Orbiter to check something in another window, and then go back to Orbiter, it crashes on me quite a bit.
It would be cool to have an MFD just for an IRC chat server. You would need something like that for an MMO anyway. I know that one was tried a long while ago, but I understand that it didn't work that well. (Others could have been done, but I've been out of the loop for a bit)
 
Last edited:

tofitouf

son excellence
Addon Developer
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
70
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Rennes Brittany
Website
www.orbiter-forum.com
What is the plan ?

Hello Dear orbinauts

I'm not often on the official OH forum more on Dan's one (I'm a poor little frenchy) and I've just discovered this thread.

It's been a long time I wanted to add Multiplayer features in Orbiter, and I'm very happy to see that I'm not the only one.
I'm creating an add'on manager these days, It's final aim is to enable any Orbinaut user to share it's universe and for a second time to propose challenges and why not for a third time a real Multiplayer game.
Real time mmorpg is a final dream but is not easy to make with the time acceleration issue. But we can imagine good ways to do that.

Of course i'd be happy to participate in the whole work. I'm a good coder, I know how to make good looking MFD (see the glactic map MFD) and then I think I could help this way too.

My Add'on manager shoudl be ready in the beginning of 2010. In my idea it should be the first step for multiplayer game.
Face tool is an excellent alternative, the logic is not the same for sharing files but there is no big differences in the logic, it's all about synchronising the orbiter installation.
We could use my tool or face's one, those are only the first step.

then I'd like to discuss what mus be the next steps.

I think that first we can propose not a complete real time MMO
but little games, challenges.

What we need for that ?
- a way to share the exact orbiter installation. to be sure that any player are in the same world. This is almost done by our Addon Manager tools
- a web site to propose missions. I'm on it with Vash (who created Orbit Hangar)
- a New tool that will propose these mission and directly launch orbiter with the proper configuration. It could replace the main orbiter dialog.
- an internal Module in orbiter (like an mfd) that check the mission parameters, and verify the mission objectives are completed. I could do that, as I know well the internal orbiter configuration from the inside. I've though about an extension of my Galactic map. that shows check points, and objectives to complete.
- This tool could send those parameter on the Web site directly. On this web site we could see which orbinaut have done which mission and with scores, time to accomplish objective, fuel used and so on.

Evolving into a real time MMO will be easier once all of that is done. It will be "just" an evolution of that.

So what do you think about that, did I forget a task in the list ?
How we can share all this hard work ?
we need :
- one person for the creation of the web site that could propose missions and record scores. (PHP-MYSQL-Html skills required)
- one person for the orbiter module that send this scores. (C++ required, and internal Orbiter parameters)
- one person for tool that point on the web site, select missions, create the orbiter installation and launch orbiter. (C++ too and a good knowledge of Qt, GTK or any GUI good library)
- one "manager" that will check the whole project.
 

BlimeyGX

New member
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Points
0
From experience with OMP when we had a server going, it -is- fun to fly around with other people. The operative term here, of course, is -fly-.
Once you get into orbit, it gets horribly boring, and don't even think of doing interplanetary stuff - time acceleration doesn't work in a multiplayer environment. Formation flying isn't all that great either, since there's a limit to how precise the server can be in positioning ships.
All in all, if you want a multiplayer scenario, you're better off doing something like FSX.

Hello:

Long time listener, first time caller.

*picks up the "beat the dead horse" bat from the table*

I believe the issue of multiplayer being "individual ships" is a miss from the intent of what I know myself, and the few folks I use orbiter with.

Our thoughts are more towards the idea of multi-CREW, rather than multi-player, as such.

Meaning, I am not going to worry if I don't see manned ship float by; as you've pointed out, you aren't likely to.

Back in the late 80's-early 90's, there was a UNIX (yes, /the/ AT&T ver 3.1) "Star Trek"-ish game where everyone was logged into a central server that was the "ship". Each "player" was a console on the bridge of the same ship.

I'd like to see Orbiter become the graphical version of that concept. Timing, and relative/absolute placement of a vessel in space would only need to ever be dictated by the "server" vessel, and everyone else would take information from that, then if any updates put the server, and client out of sync by more than 10K, ignore the data, and continue along the previously known/established line/trajectory information.

This is the simplest way to get orbiter in it's current form to a reasonable multiplayer scenario to start with. Once the mechanics are in place, then apply it in scale, and as stated many times over, just ignore ships >= 100K, and any ships within that distance, ignore data that is an adjustment of previous state more than Xk over previously known speed. In other words, if the ship is traveling at 18k p/s breaking away towards where ever, and you get an update that says they moved 200k in a second, you can safely ignore that packet, and normalize the data to "they moved only 18k" and trust the next packet or two will have correct data in it. Obviously these are bogus numbers, as the potential for a person to move 200k in 5 dropped packets is not unrealistic, but, you get the idea.

But, the real thought I wanted to bring out is that Multi-Crew is not the same mechanical nightmare as muti-vessel. You know where the ship should be, and the clients should be told to ignore data that is unrealistic to the last known good data.

In fact, it almost seems like with the graphics engine, and orbiter_ng, you could just have multiple systems attach to represent different views, and focus of the same ship, and the "server", or "ship" be the atomic choice maker.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a persistent "real world" application of orbiter, and have folks be able to move about in a larger environment where "Trade Wars 2000" is graphically made. But, to be realistic to the current iteration of the engine, and limitations thereof (which aren't really limitations, as such, only when viewed against the multiplayer concept), then multi-crew maybe what needs to be the first settled-for step in pushing orbiter into this design concept.

At that point, the simplest thing is as some say...avoid the whole time warp feature, and just force people into proximity-activated jump gates. Not a pretty solution, but, allows those of us that want to run our computer for 7 months to mars the option, or, if I want to go eat dinner with my wife, and kids, I can spend a day or so setting into position for a gate that gets me within a days maneuvers for mars.

*sets the "beat the dead horse" bat back down on the table*
 

fireballs619

Occam's Taser
Donator
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
788
Reaction score
4
Points
33
This thread was dead for a good six months before you revived it, but I'll go easy since it was your first post. :)

The concept of multi-crew has been brought up before, and is viable. The main reason it hasn't been made, though, is because there is no point. There are really no main advantages for having a co-pilot, expect occasionally asking them to flip a few switches or maybe rotate the vessel. To much work to implement, and too little results for a pay-off. The only major advantage of multi-crew is the ability to do real time tutorials with people, but the rest of us have learned without those, so it isn't impossible.

As for multi-vessel, you still have the problem of un-synched independent vessels. If the where is the ISS for player one, and is it the same for player two?

By the way, welcome to the forums.
 

Xyon

Puts the Fun in Dysfunctional
Administrator
Moderator
Orbiter Contributor
Addon Developer
Webmaster
GFX Staff
Beta Tester
Joined
Aug 9, 2009
Messages
6,927
Reaction score
795
Points
203
Location
10.0.0.1
Website
www.orbiter-radio.co.uk
Preferred Pronouns
she/her
As first posts and necros go, that one was among the best. My first thought on seeing this thread revived with a new poster was "Oh no, not again", expecting another badly written, ill-conceived idea which hadn't been thought out in the slightest. You've clearly given it more time and energy than that, which is a refreshing change.

Multi-crew could work, but not with most of the vessels we currently have in Orbiter stock, because those were designed to be flown by one player. If you had a framework with which three people could actually operate a vehicle, then you could make a vehicle which needed three people to fly it.
 

Shadow Addict

New member
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
509
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New Orleans
Multi-crew could work, but not with most of the vessels we currently have in Orbiter stock, because those were designed to be flown by one player.

I'd say NASSP is a prime candidate as is, with Apollo 7 and Apollo 8 being available in vAGC. I guess it'd be hard/impossible to simulate simultaneous operation of the LM by two players and the CSM by another (that is, when the LM is ready, whenever that may be)?
 
Top