Project Orbiter Battle Simulation Project Needs Developers!

[Ark]

Seriously, this needs ASATs. Atmospheric flight is a small fraction of the Orbiter experience, I want to plot a high-energy rendezvous with a target in orbit over Io and nail it with an ASAT as I fly by with a relative velocity of about 30 km/s.

 

[Tacolev]

Hell, to take real advantage of orbiter: Where are the Nukes?

 

[RisingFury]

I'm not a programmer, but I can make models, and IIRC Orbiter models can be made with Gmax...

Yep, you can make models for Orbiter with GMax.

Hmm. I think you should question whether or not tanks and such would be necessary. Honestly, I find it a bit odd focus so far has been on aerial combat. There are plenty of flight sims, tank games, etc. out there, but what would be extremely unique is a space combat sim that's realistic, like orbiter.

Tanks and other ground vehicles are still a long way off. First we want to perfect atmospheric and high altitude combat, but we do want to get a few SAM sites in orbiter soon, as well as some realistic planes. The reason we're going through the atmosphere before entering orbit is that we want to have a good system in place for the autopilots and AI. It will be much easier to transition to orbit when all that his done.

At least IMO, that would make the most sense, I mean, after all, Orbiter is a space sim, not really a flight sim... IMO the concern should be ASAT's, not SAM's.

ASATs will come soon. Possibly even in the upcoming release. You can't just make an ASAT and call it combat for Orbiter. You need a platform to launch it from - like a plane, you need a target to shoot at and then you need to start thinking about possible countermeasures to defend against it all.

I think the other units shooting back at you gives real depth to this addon. There have been attempts to implement various parts of combat in Orbiter (AA missile, UCGO nuke, Bomb MFD and failed attempts at an ASAT), but none of these addons has managed to combine everything and add an AI to the the other units. We have!

The next step from here are missile countermeasures. Flares and chaff. That way every missile fired won't result in a hit on enemy target and we can start dogfighting. I also have to write some tactics for the aerial combat autopilot too, other then just trying to follow the target.

The ultimate goal of this addon is to span everything from ground combat to interplanetary combat. It's still a long way off, but we're persistent. We're looking for developers that have enough patience to see this through to the end and not just jump at the quick result like "I WANT SOME ASATS!!!!"

And IMO explosion effects should always have at least two particles: The fire, since it must have additive rendering, and the smoke, which would use alpha. But Additive is VERY important to get the fire to look good...

Well, Orbiter wasn't deigned with combat in mind, so we have to stick to its limitations. The explosion effect is in two parts, an "emissive" explosion and a "diffuse" smoke puff...
The configuration for the weapon allows you to choose both fire and smoke, fire only, smoke only or none. As time goes on, I'll program more types of explosion effects, so we can simulate effects made by cluster bombs, for example and to have some variety. But for now I think we're ok.

That sounded kinda cynical. I do like the idea and what's being done, though, those are just some comments. It is exciting.

We do appreciate feedback. We can only grow through constructive criticism.

Since there's air to air missiles, have you considered incorporating some of the aircraft addons? It would be really interesting to see a Delta-Glider go up against a Mig-31, or an F-15 launch an ASAT at a DG that's in orbit.

Kev33 graciously allowed us the use of his aircraft models. That is why we're calling for help! I'm busy with the atuopilots and escapetomsfate is busy with the OBSP core. We'd really need someone to take this work off our hands and start building planes.

Ultimate goal of this addon would be to contain both current technology aircraft, as well as future fictional ones. We probably can't mix technologies if they're so different, but it does allow for current era warfare, or future.

But the funnest thing, IMO, would be orbiting above a battle site where F-22's are engaging Su-27's and advanced Chinese jets, and popping jets like balloons with an IR laser from orbit. The challenge would be to get the most kills and turn the tide of the battle with what little time you have before you pass the target, while shooting down ASAT salvos before they hit you. Then you'd have to do a burn to change your LAN or INC to pass over the battle site again, and do it again, if there's any targets left.

That is one of the possible battle scenarios. Like I said, the AI vessels really give another dimension to Orbiter combat. You won't just shoot at them, they'll shoot back at you too...

I'll Echo Eli here, will there be any capital ships? Will the team take advice from the Space Combat Techniques Discussion, and implement realistic space-to-space combat? That's the biggie I'm excited about . I guess the hard part would be getting missiles to work by orbital dynamics. I've done a good amount of work on that, if I can find the old notes...

Yes, we could have capital ships and we will take tips from various discussions. The aim is to create realistic space combat and not just turn Orbiter into the next X-universe style shoot-em-up game.



The community needs to have patience. I joined OBSP two years ago, offering my assistance with the project. Since then the development of this addon has been really focused and structured, but still we're only now at the position to offer some interesting content to the user.

OBSP is a large project and right from the start we knew it will take a lot of time to make. We're both students and do this in our spare time, but we'll get it done eventually.

 

[Eagle1Division]

Yep, you can make models for Orbiter with GMax.

I'll poke around the forums and find out how to export stuff to Orbiter, I'm actually working on something right now... I don't know if I could pull off the complex aerodynamic shapes of aircraft, I could try, but I would like to give capital ships a shot (Pun not intended, but is relished anyways). I am starting into a new way of modelling, though, and maybe I could probably give those complex aerodynamic shapes a shot. It's hard to go too far off when using blueprint reference images .

Tanks and other ground vehicles are still a long way off. First we want to perfect atmospheric and high altitude combat, but we do want to get a few SAM sites in orbiter soon, as well as some realistic planes. The reason we're going through the atmosphere before entering orbit is that we want to have a good system in place for the autopilots and AI. It will be much easier to transition to orbit when all that his done.

Okay, that's what I was really wondering about. That makes good sense now.

ASATs will come soon. Possibly even in the upcoming release. You can't just make an ASAT and call it combat for Orbiter. You need a platform to launch it from - like a plane, you need a target to shoot at and then you need to start thinking about possible countermeasures to defend against it all.

ASM-135 launched from the F-15 Eagle :thumbup:
In the "Test Launches" section it has a neat little bit on launch procedure:

On 13 September 1985, Maj. Wilbert D. "Doug" Pearson, flying the "Celestial Eagle" F-15A 76-0084 launched an ASM-135 ASAT about 200 miles (322 km) west of Vandenberg Air Force Base and destroyed the Solwind P78-1 satellite flying at an altitude of 345 miles (555 km). Prior to the launch the F-15 flying at Mach 1.22 executed a 3.8g zoom climb at an angle of 65 degrees. The ASM-134 ASAT was automatically launched at 38,100 ft while the F-15 was flying at Mach .934.[7] The 30 lb (13.6 kg) MHV collided with the 2,000 lb (907 kg) Solwind P78-1 satellite at closing velocity of 15,000 mph (24,140 km/h).

I realize you're very busy right now, and this will wait awhile, but I thought maybe this could be a bit helpful?...

Flares and chaffs apply to aerial combat, but for space, I think countermeasures could go in the Space Combat Techniques Discussion, which I'll kind of urge people to join in on to sort of "peer-review" my ideas, add their own, etc.

I think the other units shooting back at you gives real depth to this addon. There have been attempts to implement various parts of combat in Orbiter (AA missile, UCGO nuke, Bomb MFD and failed attempts at an ASAT), but none of these addons has managed to combine everything and add an AI to the the other units. We have!

The next step from here are missile countermeasures. Flares and chaff. That way every missile fired won't result in a hit on enemy target and we can start dogfighting. I also have to write some tactics for the aerial combat autopilot too, other then just trying to follow the target.

Very crude attempts compared to this, indeed! Not only does this encompass everything that's been done before, but most of all - it adds AI! That's what amazes me.
And seeing as so far there's no multiplayer in Orbiter that I know of, is quiet necessary...

Kev33 graciously allowed us the use of his aircraft models. That is why we're calling for help! I'm busy with the atuopilots and escapetomsfate is busy with the OBSP core. We'd really need someone to take this work off our hands and start building planes.

3d models, code or both?

The community needs to have patience. I joined OBSP two years ago, offering my assistance with the project. Since then the development of this addon has been really focused and structured, but still we're only now at the position to offer some interesting content to the user.

OBSP is a large project and right from the start we knew it will take a lot of time to make. We're both students and do this in our spare time, but we'll get it done eventually.

Two years ago, and two people. I can certainly see the need for recruiting! I have no knowledge of code, but I can model. I've just started into some more advanced techniques, so maybe I could give aircraft a try. I can model and UV map, but I can't make texture images.

---

Seriously, this needs ASATs. Atmospheric flight is a small fraction of the Orbiter experience, I want to plot a high-energy rendezvous with a target in orbit over Io and nail it with an ASAT as I fly by with a relative velocity of about 30 km/s.

OT: Recently I tried to fly to Europa, only to realize waaay too late that I had a fly-by velocity of 40 km/s, and I helplessly shot by it at that insane speed. The next time I tried to calculate my "braking" distance, and start the engines that far away, but I ended up not making it halfway there. Argh, I can't wait for calculus this year. Spaceflight isn't easy with just advanced Algebra :lol:

 

[escapetomsfate]

It seems most people are wondering why we haven't been developing any kind of space warfare yet.
I think really there's two main reasons:

Firstly, we needed the core functions in place first before we even thought about which type of weapons to create. Once these functions were done, it seemed a lot easier to test them out with simple freefall bombs (no guidance needed) over ASATs or anything of the sort (which would undoubtedly need a lot of time to create the guidance system just to hit the target).

The other reason is how undefined space warfare is once you get past the level of ASATs. There are many, many ideas floating around on what form(s) it could take (as proven by the 15 page threads on here that spawn surprisingly quickly as soon as someone mentions "space combat"). We could spend time developing a certain idea or "technique", but whatever we choose would only be scratching the surface (apologies for the cliché) of a vast array of ideas... OBSP hopefully will be able to simulate some of these ideas, but first it needs to start with Earth bound aerial combat - because we know exactly what happens in it...

 

[Raven]

Interested in helping...

Hi everyone. Great to see people pushing the boundaries of Orbiter's possibilities! The core sim has so much potential it's almost scary. OBSP could end up being the most outstanding 'game' ever, especially with MP support. Anything I can do to help? I haven't learned how to code (yet), but can do some modeling/texturing/uv mapping/testing.

 

[RisingFury]

Hi everyone. Great to see people pushing the boundaries of Orbiter's possibilities! The core sim has so much potential it's almost scary. OBSP could end up being the most outstanding 'game' ever, especially with MP support. Anything I can do to help? I haven't learned how to code (yet), but can do some modeling/texturing/uv mapping/testing.

Sure. If you can mesh and texture your own models and if you can do low poly modeling, then you can help out

 

[Loru]

I suggest fidling with this explosion.

3 or 4 particle emiters placed around mesh
(within 5 or 6 meters from center) with growrate of 300 (speed of sound for fireball)

But as usuall that's my opinion.

 

[RisingFury]

I suggest fidling with this explosion.

3 or 4 particle emiters placed around mesh
(within 5 or 6 meters from center) with growrate of 300 (speed of sound for fireball)

But as usuall that's my opinion.

Yea, the explosions, like everything else, needs to be fiddled with. Currently it's just a simple one. One emitter for the fireball that expands quickly and disappears quickly and another for smoke that expands slowly and persists longer.

We value your opinion and constructive criticism and thanks for the texture

 

[Rise and Shine]

Hi, I would like to contribute if all your slots are not closed. I can do meshes and beta testing, but I don't know progamming.

 

[escapetomsfate]

OBSP's new website, and an update.

Thanks to RisingFury's hard work, OBSP now has a website. The site's currently filled with screenshots, videos, a feature list and more. We'll post updates there, and an email newsletter system is now up and running for those that want to be kept up to date...

Some images from the screenshots page:

OBSP's new pipper, a visual aid for bombing runs (thanks to TNeo for the pipper's mesh):

AIM-120 missile about to hit its target. RisingFury has done a lot of work on the guided autopilot recently:

XR2 laden with munitions:

F-35 firing an AIM-9 missile (Kev Shanow's mesh)

Both of the above vessels were converted to work with OBSP really easily, I just had to write a configuration file for each that specifies the weapon hardpoint positions. This is a separate file to XR2's own CFG file, so none of the original vessel files are modified.

I also made a "ghost" configuration file for the Deltaglider:

Finally, my favourite shot - a DG taking out some UCGO fuel trucks with AGMs (thanks to Loru for OBSP's explosion texture):

Update on our progress: RisingFury and I have been pretty busy over the last few months, but we've been making steady progress. Here are the major changes (that I can remember...):

- New user interface. This includes an MFD mode with submodes (RADAR, weapon systems, damage information, autopilots, countermeasures, and possibly more). Screenshots of this aren't shown because I still change the MFD pretty regularly and it doesn't feel right to show off something that's unfinished.

- Countermeasures. RisingFury has done all the work on this - vessels can deploy measures to reduce the chance of being hit by a guided weapon. These include: Flares, chaffs, and electronic countermeasures

- Artificial Intelligence. Again this is excellent work from RisingFury. Before now we just had an instruction queue, a simple "robot" that knows how to fly waypoints, follow another vessel, shoot at targets, etc. Now we have an AI - vessels react when weapons are fired at them by deploying countermeasures and firing missiles back! This is still in an early phase of development, but it's already interesting to watch the behaviour of it.

- Autopilot improvements. As the previous posts on this thread show, RisingFury has made the OBSP autopilots more flexible to work on a wider range of vessels. He's currently in the process of using PID-like controllers to further improve on the autopilot.

There's also been a LOT of behind the scenes work that we don't really have anything to show for, but the overall effect of this is a smoother, less buggy OBSP.

There's a complete list of features on the website.

Release is still a long way off, but it's a few steps closer.

 

[Felipi1205]

:blink: Me and my crew are running!!
Amazing project!

 

[RisingFury]

ETF is giving me a lot of credit here, so let me set the record straight. Without ETF, there would be no OBSP.

The 'behind the scenes' work ETF is doing right now is vital and quite impressive, too. OBSP has big things planned for the future. This project has been going on for years and will be in-dev for years more. As always, I ask for your patience and to stick with us, as we roll along

 

[dumbo2007]

I love the autopilots you guys have developed and I am looking forward to seeing them in action. I ll stretch it and say that the AIs will actually decide on how many people play with it. Its challenging to have the AI fight back

By the way I was reading on the OBSP site :

When a missile is fired at a craft under AI control, it will deploy countermeasures and fly in a way to avoid being hit. If successful, the AI will then try to fight back!

So how do you make the missile move towards the countermeasures instead of the target.

 

[RisingFury]

So how do you make the missile move towards the countermeasures instead of the target.

In the code, it's done with a sort of cheat, to save on CPU power. Here's how it works:

The plane launches countermeasures and emits a brief particle stream to do the visuals. It then contacts all missiles chasing it and tells them where it deployed countermeasures. The missiles then decide if they're gonna fall for the countermeasures or not. The alternative would be to create another invisible vessel that would serve as countermeasures, but that's a lot more expensive...

Several things are taken into account, including the orientation of the plane relative to the missile, what seeking equipment the missile has, what countermeasures were deployed and I can't remember off the top of my head, but I also think I have the IR missiles check at what power the plane's engines are running. Also, the missile has a progressively lesser chance of being distracted by countermeasures. If you launch a missile from far away and the plane deploys multiple countermeasures over time, that would mean shots from long distances would always fail, so I decrease the chance of an effective countermeasure every time it's used. Each missile keeps track of how many countermeasures were used against it, so a new missile will be just as likely to be confused.

---------- Post added at 14:28 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------

I love the autopilots you guys have developed and I am looking forward to seeing them in action. I ll stretch it and say that the AIs will actually decide on how many people play with it. Its challenging to have the AI fight back

Yea, I think so too. I think AI is key. I remember when OBSP was in early stages of development, before I joined the project. ETF had a nuclear bomb implemented and I remember everyone that tested OBSP went for the nuke, but people lost interest quite quickly because there wasn't much else to do.

There's also another addon, AA Missile by topper:
[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=3324"]AA-Missile 0.98[/ame]

But it too has no AI, so while it's fun to shoot down a few DGs flying in a straight line, it becomes very boring quite quickly.

On the other hand, even though the dog fighting algorithm basically consists of the plane trying to follow its target and shooting missiles at it and the AI in its infancy, I've already had some very nice dogfights against the autopilots. It managed to shoot me down quite often, actually.

 

[dumbo2007]

Very good

Perhaps the DG can do a cobra maneuver if the vessels are setup just right.

Several things are taken into account, including the orientation of the plane relative to the missile, what seeking equipment the missile has, what countermeasures were deployed and I can't remember off the top of my head, but I also think I have the IR missiles check at what power the plane's engines are running. Also, the missile has a progressively lesser chance of being distracted by countermeasures. If you launch a missile from far away and the plane deploys multiple countermeasures over time, that would mean shots from long distances would always fail, so I decrease the chance of an effective countermeasure every time it's used. Each missile keeps track of how many countermeasures were used against it, so a new missile will be just as likely to be confused.

Yes that seems to be pretty comprehensive. I was wondering if it would be possible to model a LGM so that it tracks a DG continuously using a seeker head that rotates in all 3 axes like shown here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paveway_III_laser_guided_bomb_seeker_head.jpg

Would be interesting to see if the missile can keep a target lock from its constantly changing position. There would be limits to the seeker of course so it may not be able to keep a lock always, or the missile will take too long to turn to a new heading & thats what would decide whether the missile hits before its fuel runs out.

 

[Napalm42]

I can't wait for this. Have an orbital battle with a massive fleet.

Newly appointed Orbital Defense Corps Admiral Frakes and his rag tag fleet of volunteer spacecraft, versus the outnumbering enemy fleet. Can't wait!

EDIT: Now, let's see how we'll do orbital combat maneuvers without deorbiting:lol:

 

[Grover]

its looking good, perhaps we could develop a WBVR missile (WAY-beyond-visual-range) for taking out HVTs from upper scramjet altitudes and hundreds of miles away

alternatley, how about some ASA (like AAA, but anti-spacecraft-artillery) that launch SOM (surface-orbit-missile)s against sneaky deltagliders

but since they would only hit the target AFTER its dropped its missiles, we'd need S-OGMs (Surface to orbit to ground missiles) to target incoming missiles... which would need stupid amounts of programming

if you ever need some idea, let me know

 

[RisingFury]

Very good

Perhaps the DG can do a cobra maneuver if the vessels are setup just right.



Yes that seems to be pretty comprehensive. I was wondering if it would be possible to model a LGM so that it tracks a DG continuously using a seeker head that rotates in all 3 axes like shown here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paveway_III_laser_guided_bomb_seeker_head.jpg

Would be interesting to see if the missile can keep a target lock from its constantly changing position. There would be limits to the seeker of course so it may not be able to keep a lock always, or the missile will take too long to turn to a new heading & thats what would decide whether the missile hits before its fuel runs out.

The missile autopilot currently does track its target continuously, unless the countermeasures are deployed.

Laser guided and GPS guided bombs will be implemented shortly as well. Not much work to do that and not too difficult, actually.

its looking good, perhaps we could develop a WBVR missile (WAY-beyond-visual-range) for taking out HVTs from upper scramjet altitudes and hundreds of miles away

alternatley, how about some ASA (like AAA, but anti-spacecraft-artillery) that launch SOM (surface-orbit-missile)s against sneaky deltagliders

but since they would only hit the target AFTER its dropped its missiles, we'd need S-OGMs (Surface to orbit to ground missiles) to target incoming missiles... which would need stupid amounts of programming

if you ever need some idea, let me know

As far as individual tactics go, we can talk about it later. The first thing I need for shooting into orbit is an ASAT missile. If I can make an autopilot accurate enough to hit a satellite, then I imagine a similar autopilot would hit incoming orbital vessels.

The problem with this setup is that re-entering craft usually make course corrections on their way in. This presents a challenge to the missile. With thin atmosphere, the control surfaces are not very effective and it can only make large course corrections when the engine is running and vectoring thrust.

Although if the launch of the missile is accurate enough, I think it should be doable.

 

[dumbo2007]

The problem with this setup is that re-entering craft usually make course corrections on their way in. This presents a challenge to the missile.

Maybe have 2 interceptions, one exospheric and one endospheric. The endospheric one is launched after watching the profile of the incoming spacecraft/ICBM. It tries to hit it but if it fails , it can push the spacecraft to a trajectory that allow easier endospheric interception. Also the both stages can try to have the missile launch MIRVs at the end of its fuel to maximize chances of a kill.