North Korea conducts nuclear test?

[Andy44]

Makes me boil inside. But what can you do?

 

[Arrowstar]

You get them out and politics be ****ed. What they they are doing with American citizens is illegal and should not be tolerated by the international community any more than the nuclear denotations were.

 

[MJR]

They have eventually done it. Two Americans are sentenced for 12 years of labor camps in North Korea:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...HELD?SITE=NCWIN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I have more hatred to countries who have Americans or anyone in general to be sentenced without fair trial. I am glad our fore fathers from the 1700s we intelligent and reasonable because they made the government for this country better than most.

 

[Andy44]

My first reaction is anger, of course, but I have learned that it pays to stop and think before going off half-cocked and doing something stupid and regretable.

I would hope that after the last 8 years of nonsense, the entire USA would've learned ths same lesson, but I have no illusions about that.

 

[Urwumpe]

Of course, the question is still: What did they do at the border river to China and have they been on the wrong side of the river?

Of course, they are a gift for the North Korean, but the question is: Did North Korea have to pick their gift on the wrong side of the river, or did they get it delivered for free? North Korea is known for kidnapping people in South Korea, but this case looks a bit less criminal.

They have gotten a trail according to North Korean standards, which means: If you are not more equal than others, you will get badly in trouble, regardless what you have done and if you are innocent or not - if you are not guilty of this crime, you might have done another.

All our legal standards on which we trust everyday, are just a few words written on fragile paper. But they are the small stuff which differs our justice from such commanded injustice.

 

[Eagle]

I would hope that after the last 8 years of nonsense,

The DPRK related nonsense has been going on since the Korean War.

Of course, they are a gift for the North Korean, but the question is: Did North Korea have to pick their gift on the wrong side of the river, or did they get it delivered for free? North Korea is known for kidnapping people in South Korea, but this case looks a bit less criminal.

Hard to know without asking the 2 directly. Either answer wouldn't surprise me.

As you said, the main issue is that their trial and sentence were especially harsh in order to provide them with threatened hostages to bargain with.

 

[Kveldulf]

What bugs me the most about the entire situation is the speculation that NK might use the journalists as leverage during their (supposed) upcoming missile tests. They're on thin ice already, and I would think that many countries are sick and tired of North Korea's nonsense. The simple act of using free citizens (I don't think it makes a difference if they're American or not) as political bait to conduct tests already banned by the UN is doing nothing more then paiting a giant target on themselves.

I doubt it will come to it, but any military actions to remove the reporters from prison would not suprise me.

 

[willy88]

Twelve years of slave labor. This makes my blood boil. :dry:

 

[MJR]

I feel as though this is like a concentration camp. People are not meant to work for slave labor camps under any circumstances. 12 years is a bit too harsh. This is North Korea's way of getting attention because nobody cares about them.

 

[tblaxland]

Twelve years of slave labor. This makes my blood boil. :dry:

"reform through labour", actually. They were not sold into slavery.

To all: keep the aggression down please, it does not help the discussion. Also, asterisked words are considered vulgar language, refer the rules: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/rules.php

 

[MJR]

"reform through labour", actually. They were not sold into slavery.

To all: keep the aggression down please, it does not help the discussion. Also, asterisked word are considered vulgar language, refer the rules: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/rules.php

That is what they say. We all know that there is a possibility of torture and cruel treatment.

 

[willy88]

Also, asterisked words are considered vulgar language, refer the rules: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/rules.php

Sorry, I guess it was unnecessary.

 

[Andy44]

"reform through labour", actually. They were not sold into slavery.

To all: keep the aggression down please, it does not help the discussion. Also, asterisked words are considered vulgar language, refer the rules: http://www.orbiter-forum.com/rules.php

Communist euphemism.

The seriousness of what is in store for these women is hard to understate.

That said, anger is not a good state for decision-making.

 

[computerex]

Question: Suppose a few foreigners were to come to United States, and commit criminal acts. If they are caught on US soil, would they be subjected to US law, or would they be deported back to their native country, leaving the government of that country to deal with it?

 

[Andy44]

Question: Suppose a few foreigners were to come to United States, and commit criminal acts. If they are caught on US soil, would they be subjected to US law, or would they be deported back to their native country, leaving the government of that country to deal with it?

Unless it was some sort of violent crime, they would likely be deported, especially if it caused an international uproar.

These reporters may have violated some law or other and went where they weren't supposed to, but they weren't violent criminals. And even if they were spies, NK would have provided the evidence to the media in order to embarass the US.

No, these women are being used as pawns, bargaining chips. NK is trying to test the resolve of the Obama administration. Up to now, it was very easy for Obama to pretty much ignore NK's antics, but now that two Americans have got caught up and may come to real harm, Obama's in a tight spot. He'll be under pressure at home to protect these two citizens and get some payback for this stunt, but he also knows that any hostile act against NK would likely open Pandora's Box, resulting in a possible second Korean war, lots of dead Koreans and Americans, and possibly the involvement of China and Japan.

 

[Nerull]

I believe they would go through the US court system. They may be deported after conviction, depending on the crime - "aggravated felonies" especially come with deportation and a bar from ever returning.

 

[computerex]

Unless it was some sort of violent crime, they would likely be deported, especially if it caused an international uproar.

Hm. I just found this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay
From what I read, Michael wasn't a violent criminal either. That was nothing more then a simple case of teenage hormones, yet that particular conviction caused international uproar.

Let's look at this situation from the perspective of both countries. To North Korea, these two women may have been a serious threat to national security. However to the west, this is another humanitarian issue. The North Koreans have far more at stake. If they were to let these women come back to the states, and these women did in fact turn out to be spies, that would be very bad news for them, very bad news indeed. So their sentence may have a stronger foundation. What if the same thing were to occur to the US? Would the US government risk national security because other nations are complaining? Probably not.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Just for you to mind, in the USSR circa 1935-1950 "ten years with no right of communication" was the "polite" way of telling the relatives of a convicted that he has actually been executed. The more true liking Chinese at Mao times would have sent the relatives a bill to be paid for for the ammo used in process of execution - such is a cultural difference of kinds.

Euna's and Laura's relatives have only a slim chance of seeing them back alive (or maybe just one of them) only in the case the US administration will behave really nicely towards NK and do everything they are asked for (I believe they are currently contemplating the exact list of their demands for the UN and the USA).

The chance for returning the hostages is a carrot (and you'll never know how real it is, given the free handling of truth within the Jucheist state), and threat of a nuclear strike is a stick. All in all, they are conducting a well thought of strategy.

I also foresee a possible another way of development of the things that may hold a chance for the girls. NK undergoes a coup (maybe shortly after Kim II bites the dust) and the new leader would like to play a good cop for the international community and do so through releasing the hostages held previously by the "bad" one. But this is a very slim possibility, as one may guess.

It's especially nasty that any open military conflict will effect in slaying the hostages. In shoes of the USA government, I would learn from experience of Mossad and KGB in their moments of glory and rely more on their secret services, but that's a tough and dirty business, for sure (quite an opposite way of doing to the currently displayed openness and good intent).

P.S. I sincerely hope that North Korean authorities will follow example of their Iranian counterparts and release the convicted simply on the humanitarian grounds. Maybe just conducting the trial is enough for their internal propaganda purposes. I really hope so.

 

[Andy44]

Let's look at this situation from the perspective of both countries. To North Korea, these two women may have been a serious threat to national security. However to the west, this is another humanitarian issue. The North Koreans have far more at stake. If they were to let these women come back to the states, and these women did in fact turn out to be spies, that would be very bad news for them, very bad news indeed. So their sentence may have a stronger foundation. What if the same thing were to occur to the US? Would the US government risk national security because other nations are complaining? Probably not.

I think that is a fairly naive view of North Korea. These women were an opportunity to be grabbed. Siberian Tiger lays it out pretty well. The women are pawns in the game of brinksmanship, and the North Korean government is apparently very good at it.

To me, these are two humans who are being treated very badly, subject to possible rape, abuse, and death, for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I have zero empathy with the sociopaths in Pyongyang, for whom human beings are little more than cattle.