Question Long text vs short text?

[ar81]

When it is about communication, I have found that anglosaxon and spanish speakers have different standards of communication. Anglosaxons like short texts. Long text seems a sign of hostility.

In spanish a long and well constructed sentence is a sign of high culture. Short chat sentences are for amateurs, low culture. So even if a text is hard to read, if it fits high culture communication, reader will have to make the effort to understand.

I ocassionally attended a writers workshop and I learned to write complex texts in spanish. And when I came to internet I found that communication was absolutely different, more oriented to a "robotic on topicness" as I used to see it.

So my texts annoy people because they are too long for anglosaxons, and too short for spanish speakers. Once I wrote a reply to a lady, a single line, and she complained about my rudeness.

Short messages seem to show I do not care about you, so I won't spend time and words for you. Writing elegant complex text requires more thinking, and reader appreciates the effort in spanish. In english it seems like "go straight to the point, minimal use of words".

Any of you have had that communication problem?

More than tuning language thinking when I switch languages, I find extremely difficult to tune the length of texts. I talk to people in spanish, then switch to english...

How could I see if communication is fine? I am used to think of long and complex texts as a sign of high culture... all my life.

Any ideas are appreciated.

 

[Urwumpe]

What counts is not the length of text, but the content of the text.

Nobody likes to see 5 pages of uttering around, when the distilled answer is finally only a sentence.

Also, it has nothing to do with Spanish vs anglosaxon... The many spanish people I know from school and university had also been able to give clear answers.

 

[Eagle]

I'm in the brevity camp. Not everything needs to be in five-word sentences; but that is a good start.

Its one thing to call high writing flowing paragraphs full of rich visualization. Sort of like watching the marbled texture of a strawberry milkshake undulate as you drink its creamy goodness.

The problem is when it becomes meaninglessly verbose. Maybe not unlike choking on ice when attempting to chug a pitcher of soda as part of a dare that you only took up because you were blind drunk now its 2 am and they got hungry and went for pizza you went along anyway to for some reason because you were surprised the pizza place was open oh crap you got soda all over yourself and its cold its pretty funny though, everybody's laughing, hopefully it won't stain, dang you feel pretty dizzy better sit down.

 

[ar81]

Probably you mean spanish from Spain...
I mean people from my country.

Hmmm.
Five words looks like good start.

The problem is when it becomes meaninglessly verbose. Maybe not unlike choking on ice when attempting to chug a pitcher of soda as part of a dare that you only took up because you were blind drunk now its 2 am and they got hungry and went for pizza you went along anyway to for some reason because you were surprised the pizza place was open oh crap you got soda all over yourself and its cold its pretty funny though, everybody's laughing, hopefully it won't stain, dang you feel pretty dizzy better sit down.

Yes!! That's a "retahila", but the folkloric retahilas here have humor and verses.

This is an example of retahila in the Costa Rican fashion.
http://208.249.121.53/foros/imagen/Forum8/HTML/008515.html
The author made it to celebrate independence day, but it lacks humor.

What I enjoyed the most was this fragment that has a good message against xenophobic behavior, and discrimination against religions. The antiwar culture we have, made the author to say strong words against war.

yo soy centroamericano
catracho, guanaco y nica,
y aunque tengo el alma tica
también es negra y es maya
y quiero poner en raya
a quien desprecie al migrante:
eso es un error gigante
pues migrantes somos todos
de distinta forma o modo,
pero migrantes al fin,
no le echemos más canfín
a la inmunda xenofobia,
da testimonio la historia
de que ha provocado guerras
y sufrimiento en la tierra
el desprecio al extranjero
al gitano y al maicero
al que tiene otra cultura
a quien tiene el alma pura
pero habla otro lenguaje
a quien no viste de traje,
al que es de buen corazón
pero de otra religión.

 

[wehaveaproblem]

Five words looks like good start.

That's six words, keep practicing!

I think I'm largely in agreement with the replies here, content is more important to me that verbosity. That said, I do appreciate the effort it takes to construct a thought out and well written reply.

Generally I find the people I know from other countries speak better English than me!

I've not had much experience with Spanish, although I do sometimes find Germans can appear a little direct and blunt because they seem to favour only using the minimum amount of words and sentences. Which in a way is a skill, but sometimes appears, to me, a little impersonal. sorry Urwumpe mate! Although I can ramble, so....

 

[Eagle]

I understand your choice of writing style a lot better now.

But to sacrifice clarity and meaning for length is a problem. I have trouble reading through some longer posts because they become disjointed or I receive no extra meaning or argument from them.

I prefer a spicy jalapeno loaded with seasoning and roasted to perfection, to a bland watery pot of soup full of roughage. You may grind up and add the jalapeno to that soup, but its so dilute and masked by blander flavors that its not even worth my time.

 

[ar81]

Looks like challenge is not language.
Challenge is switching from high culture to robotic mode.

Our local spanish is all but systematic.
Robots are systematic.
Our spanish is about elegance.
As for impersonal, that's robotic mode.
Robotic, systematic, precise.
Elegance is about aesthetics.
Moving between both in split seconds seems hard.

Good english construct seems aimed at simplicity for reader.
Good local spanish is aimed at high culture of writer, reader must adapt to high culture complexity, unless you aim at low culture audience.

If you intend to publish an article in La Nacion (the most reputable newspaper) a minimum requirement is high culture.

 

[wehaveaproblem]

yeah, totally agree, Eagle. It's equally a skill to keep someone attentive and informed through more verbose stuff as it is to write minimalist prose. I guess the trick is getting the balance write of when words are needed and when they are not. Or maybe, just know when to shut up.

Good english construct seems aimed at simplicity for reader

I think that's definitely true. But English is the international business language. So I suppose in that context brevity and clarity are important.

 

[Tommy]

I tend to favor brevity for two reasons. First, I don't want to waste the reader's time with extra, often irrelevant, ramblings. Second, many people have fairly short attention spans and if a comment is to long their eyes will glaze over and they won't actually get my point.

That being said, if I'm passionate about the subject I can go on for days. Alcohol also tends to make me rather verbose.

Tommy

 

[Urwumpe]

Which in a way is a skill, but sometimes appears, to me, a little impersonal. sorry Urwumpe mate! Although I can ramble, so....

The German language is not too easy, but pretty explicit, that's one aspect which always gets lost in translations.

In northern germany, the difference between a normal greeting and a formal or respectful greeting is just using two words instead of one.

Maybe that is the difference to the Spanish language, that we can describe a whole range of details in a short paragraph just by the selection of words (The German language has more words to choose from, AFAIR), but otherwise, even the Mexican and Catalan people had no problems with being exact as well. And from my little bit of Spanish lessons during school, and reading Mexican schoolbooks, there is no evidence that writing off-topic text for introducing the important details is required in the Spanish language.

It is, if at all, a personal habit, and I have strong doubts that it is common in Costa Rica to write that way - at least the official homepages use a similar compact structure.

Also, if you really want to see strange language, read about the ancient chinese bureaucrats, and their exams. The questions by the emperor had been extremely formal and respectful and it was expected by the applicant to reply with the same level of formality and respect.

If you translate it into German, it sounds like the Emperor first recites a long disclaimer - and the applicant as well.

EDIT: Also, the German language and the related culture has nothing to do with being robotic - German poetry and literature is still in high regard in the world, and that also because of the special traits of the language - not because it sounds like a Klingon with a bad cold.

 

[ar81]

It is, if at all, a personal habit, and I have strong doubts that it is common in Costa Rica to write that way - at least the official homepages use a similar compact structure.

I was raised in high culture.
Websites rarely are examples of high culture.

 

[wehaveaproblem]

I was raised in high culture.
Websites rarely are examples of high culture

Now that's some quality brevity right there!

 

[ar81]

Julio Rodriguez, editor of opinion and forum section of La Nacion, is a man raised in high culture.

See him writing...
http://www.nacion.com/ln_ee/2008/diciembre/03/opinion1797243.html
Long sentences, complexity and aesthetics prevail, with a clear message.
He has a great style. And he works for the best paper in the country.
There are others papers, and except for La Republica, the rest are aimed at low culture audience.

EDIT: Also, the German language and the related culture has nothing to do with being robotic - German poetry and literature is still in high regard in the world, and that also because of the special traits of the language - not because it sounds like a Klingon with a bad cold.

Just try to say "I love you" in german, it sounds robotic.
I would not be married if I had said my wife "I love you" in german...

 

[Urwumpe]

I was raised in high culture.
Websites rarely are examples of high culture.

"Ein Geist, der sich allein liebt, ist ein schwimmender Atom im unermeßlichen leeren Raume."


(translated: A spirit, which solely loves himself, is a floating atom in the immeasurable empty space)

I thought I insert some high culture into the thread, that was by Friedrich Schiller.


-----Post Added-----

Just try to say "I love you" in german, it sounds robotic.
I would not be married if I had said my wife "I love you" in german...

Is that now a sign of very high or of very low standards?

"Leidenschaftliche Liebe und Ehe ist zweierlei."

(Passionate love and marriage are two different kinds)

 

[ar81]

"Voló el ave mítica desde la antigüedad de su alcándara durante la segunda lunación. Cruzó frente al parteluz de la fortaleza para posarse sobre los cascarones inertes de máquinas herrumbradas." - José Pablo Luna Sánchez

It is a poetical description I made when practicing baroque writing, to describe a bird landing over a rusty machine.

-------------

I debated the issue with my friends raised in high culture here.
An old lady, friend of mine, replied that she does not mind reading long emails loaded with retahilas, since english and english speakers are extraterrestrial for her as english belongs to paranormal world as far as she is concerned.

She says that latinos like to play with words, something that english speakers do not seem to enjoy too much, as far as she sees.

 

[Urwumpe]

Poetry has nothing to do with discussions though. Poetry is playing with words, and not aiming always at being expressed. (NO, I will now not start reciting the immortal Kurt Schwitters)

Da steht sie - voller Schönheit -
Erhaben die Gestalt,
Überragt doch all die Anderen,
Diese Liebe ist so alt.

Die Liebe und die Sehnsucht,
Das Wissen, dass was fehlt.
Was heilig ist muss leuchten,
Die Idee, die ewig quält.

Erst schwelt sie und dann brennt es,
Lange Zeiten der Untätigkeit.
Ich bleib in Ihrer Nähe -
Bald schon, bald ist es soweit!

Ich werde ein Zeichen setzen,
Sie wird scheinen voller Pracht.
Man kann sie nicht ersetzen,
Sie wird ein Opfer für die Nacht.

Es beginnt an wunden Stellen,
Heiß und leuchtend rot die Glut.
Hier und da ein Funke,
Welcher vorwärts kriecht voll Wut.
Es erreicht bald das Gebälk,
man hört es feurig knistern,
Oder sind es Todesängste,
die leise wispern...

Again, a rather simple example of how a lot of information, can end inside short phrases.

 

[Omhra]

Well. I use language to pass thoughts across. Sometimes it is useful to rant to spark reaction...
And sometimes one has to curve the ball to filter out adhominem would-be's...

 

[ar81]

In the ad hominem rant
you may say what you want
in the spotlight, with style.

In the solitude of stars
there are those who shine
a spark of their own light
will become immortal.
But you have those
who reflect the light of others
and will remain in the forgotten portal
of oblivion.

There might be ad hominem
but in the kingdom of arts it fades
the opponent becomes beaten
trapped in your frames
it becomes a game of words
a game of blades
that hurt like swords.

If no art prevails
information becomes deformation
useless pieces of chunky bits
in a mindless obliteration.

 

[Arrowstar]

I would argue that the length of the text is partially determined by the medium in which convened. I do not want to listen to a sentence that takes 30 seconds to speak. Nor do I want to read SMS messages on my phone that are verbose, either. However, in pure written format, such as email, this forum, a book, and the like I would much rather prefer longer sentences that are more highly structured and more elegant or what have you.

To mean, it's all about the medium.

 

[RichWall]

And then there are the examples of a lot of words that mean gibberish.

Over and over, again and again, never ceasing, in your face, always dark, never cleansing, nothing affirmed, nothing gained, takes up space, litters the place, broken back, shrunken head, there lies the truth slaughtered on the bed, can it change, don't know how, confused in mind, takes a bow.

I could have said with less words but I was trying to show high culture.