Project Here goes nothing: The Delta-StarLiner G42

[Usquanigo]

Well, a light weight inflatable pod could use very little (like a can of hairspray) to keep it aloft. But it ends up becoming like carrying a jack and full-size spare - better to use run-flats and avoid major road problems (or construction sites).

Seems kind of odd how people keep clamoring for an ejection system in all these craft (the XR-2 as well). Is there really a desire to blow the canopy into Mach 17 air, or even burn up on re-entry as the first human meteorite?

And besides..... this is Orbiter. Does anything EVER go wrong anyway? Only pilot error, but if your ship is in danger of breaking up because of pilot error, your space suit won't stand a chance.

Best philosphy is the one Jeremy paraphrases from TVR in this clip (at 2:30 to 2:55) -

 

[Moach]

true... the only scenario i can imagine where this would be a viable alternative is in the event of a fire running loose aboard the ship...

tho, come to think of it... in such an oxigen-rich environment as a ship's cabin, any out-of-control fire would probably barbecue the crew a lot sooner than they can manage to escape..... :facepalm:

yeah... leaving the ship at ANY point seems like a terrible idea :uhh::lol:

 

[River Crab]

Ahahaha, yes, I'll take any excuse to watch moar Top Gear. :lol:

Not to completely shoot down an idea (with this being a dev thread and all), but, while some kind of rescue isn't completely out of the question, anything in the future about ejection should be taken to the XR2 Ravenstar thread and chased out by an angry mob. :tiphat:

 

[Moach]

don't worry... and we can always bring the mob here... who doesn't like an angry mob? (pitchforks and torches not supplied - bring your own)


bailing out from spacecraft is definately enough to justify a darwin awards nomination...

even if there's a fire aboard, it's still safer to try and put it out than to "abandon ship"... remember - you're in SPACE, and space tends to frown upon having loose people there...

there's a reason why Lovell and his crew didn't bail out after they "had a problem"...


i prefer to invest my efforts in a safe-abort system, which allows you to dump your fuel, secure the intakes and ditch over water.... this way you live to get grilled back at base, instead of being grilled by mach 20 heat

 

[GuiConteDGIV2X]

FINNALY

as for the controls, i'm still tuning it, but i got it a lot more stable now... FWB simulation looks good... specially, the crazy-banking issue is now gone :hmm:

FINNALY

about the ejction system don t make a one SLOW like the XR Series and some autopilots like atmospheric flight,orbital flight, huge range docking autopilot,and reentry autopilot because that s impossible to mannualy hold pitch during reentry and a fully reentry autopilot for a little more n00bs because some n00bs learn how to reentry because i see some reentry videos (i want to make a one too) comments like "how to reentry" "how to make to don t burn during the reentry" or just make a doc or playback tutorial on the end of the developement

 

[Usquanigo]

about the ejction system don t make a one SLOW like the XR Series and some autopilots like atmospheric flight,orbital flight, huge range docking autopilot,and reentry autopilot because that s impossible to mannualy hold pitch during reentry and a fully reentry autopilot for a little more n00bs because some n00bs learn how to reentry because i see some reentry videos (i want to make a one too) comments like "how to reentry" "how to make to don t burn during the reentry" or just make a doc or playback tutorial on the end of the developement

No worries. 1) the XR series does NOT have an ejection system. 2) Moach just said above that he won't be wasting his precious time on a system that would be too dangerous to use, provide no benefit to the model, and just add weight to the craft anyway.

 

[Wonderer]

[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4488"]Inflatable Space Rescue Unit for UCGO[/ame] here's a life boat
It can be used if for some reason the ship has more holes than swiss cheese when in orbit.

 

[Moach]

Inflatable Space Rescue Unit for UCGO here's a life boat
It can be used if for some reason the ship has more holes than swiss cheese when in orbit.

yes - that's a viable alternative... however, it does seem like it would only be useful in the event of an irreparable failure in some type of scenario that renders the cabin environment more dangerous than the outside....

even in the event of a full cabin decompression (which is unlikely, since small holes could be plugged with some form of sealing goo), it still could be wiser for the crew to simply suit up and remain inside, where it's less "OMG we're gonna diiieeee!!" :lol:


such a life raft could only contribute to saving the crew's lives if there was something so wrong with the ship that it becomes about to explode at any moment :uhh:

 

[GuiConteDGIV2X]

i am back again. about the ejection system the xr series have a one yes because when you open the nosecone,outer door and eva on atmosphere automaticaly you have the auto-chute enabled so this is a SLOW bail-out

 

[River Crab]

OK. Let's set this straight:

1. Bail out: When evacuation is needed inside the atmosphere, the crew jumps out through an existing entry/exit hatch.
The XR2 has this. So does almost any other aircraft. Or any vehicle for that matter.

2. Ejection: When evacuation is needed inside the atmosphere, the crew (usually only 1 or 2 people) is blasted out by the seat of their pants, via pyrotechnic separating canopy, panels, and seat, or via pyrotechnic separating escape capsule.
The DGIV has this, but only for the pilot. The rest of the crew bails out.
The prototype XB-70 Valkyrie had an escape capsule.

3. Ditch: The crew decides to sit down, shut up, and accept their failure, and then land on water.

4. Crash landing: The crew decides to sit down, shut up, and accept their failure, and then land on land.

IMO, since the costs of spaceplane launches to LEO will probably not be lower than $300 USD per Kg for the G42 (and likely be much higher), and because ejection is not even usable for most of it's flight regime, ejection is nowhere near worth it for the G42. That being said, bailout could be much more convenient in the XR2 (ctrl+A, ctrl+k, ctrl+o, alt+o, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E, E is the most you will ever do). It could be as simple as esc, esc, esc. Just a bit slower than ejection.

Besides, 'Mach' Winters and Marisa Kirisame are competent pilots; they can always handle a crash landing. As has been demonstrated before...:dry:

 

[Moach]

well... if it keeps going the way it is, we shouldn't have to worry so much about that...
the G42 has been extensively flight-tuned now... i'm not gonna claim i have it down, but it sure feels good the way it is :hmm:

i just managed to take 'er for a FULL orbital operations test, yep, that's right - i managed to take off, blast my way out of this good earth, and bring it back to land at KSC after two complete orbits

i was surprised by how steady it felt during reentry... specially considering my previous attempts - turns out, you can pull the pitch trim back and enjoy the ride making minor corrections on the stick, guided by AerobrakeMFD... no autopilots needed... it's easy enough to do by hand :thumbup: - that's the magic of Fly-by-Wire, you feel totally in control, even though you're really not at all :lol:


since at least 75 percent of the takeoff weight is fuel, upon return, the Starliner is light as a feather, and boasts a surprisingly high glide ratio (a LOT more than in the DG)... once it goes subsonic, it even feels like an airliner descent (reminds of the 747 approaches i used to do in FSX)...


just getting it down on the runway was a bit bumpy... it's hard to manage your energy without the airbrakes... :dry: it bounced off a little, but eventually got it down and wheels stopped :thumbup:


after the deorbit burn, the main tanks had about 1% of fuel... a little more was left in the oxy tank, 'cuz i apparently miscalculated the critical mode transition... but it goes to show that the engines are very close to being completely in tune with what i intend for this ship in terms of performance

and you know what else is REALLY cool? - the ISP values i used are inspiringly close to the real-life data for those types of engines, which i took from wikipedia during my lengthy research runs...

could something like the G42 even be possible IRL?

cheerz :tiphat:

 

[Usquanigo]

RC, Moach, is it just my imagination, or should we maybe be speaking a different language?

Moach, it might be easiest to just put ypur foot down and say "no ejection system/ period.".

In the meantime, those asking for one, consider the effects of weight. Weight is BAD. You want to remove ANY of it that you possibly can without compromizing the design. Weight requires more fuel, AND more thrust. Weight is why it's so hard to go into space, and why we do not have an SSTO craft in real life.

Now consider the fact that has been beaten to death here - An ejection system on a craft like this would be MORE dangerous to use than remaining aboard.

That means such a system would be USELESS. Something useless is unecessary weight. Refer to the above about weight.

Finally, consider that in Orbiter, things won't break - it's a game. Yet, coding and modeling a system takes time and effort from the developer. So you have a useless system taking up the dev's time and energy with no benefit being provided. That too is a terrible waste and clearly not even worth it.

Save yourselves the worry about a lack of an ejection system and just don't crash.

Could we all maybe just forget about ejection systems now?

 

[River Crab]

I don't see a huge communications problem, except for GuiConte, who is not exactly fluent in English (it's OK GuiConte, don't worry)...he brought up ejection, but let's not point fingers...
Anyway it's fairly obvious that I'm just quick to argue about ejection, or at least bring people to argue about ejection. You worded it better than I could have, though. So that's that. :tiphat:


Congrats on full orbital mission completion! Regis 'Mach' Winters is definitely crazy enough to handle it. After the Wideawake ditch fiasco...

The way the control surfaces move is beautiful, like a soaring bird...
FBW FTW!

But for some reason, on my other computer, I'm getting the "invisible vessel that falls down with no engines and no anything" glitch. What is this thing about, again? :idk:

 

[Izack]

If there were an ejection function, it should be a trap door under the toilet and a debug message with the words EPIC FAIL, followed by a CTD.

 

[Moach]

so let it be noted henceforth - THERE ARE NO EJECTION SEATS! :nono:


there are a lot of other ways you can throw yourself into the jaws of inpending doom, and without adding a ton of extra junk aboard a craft that relies on every pound it can scratch off... :facts:


things in Orbiter may not really break... but then again, this is NOT the Delta-Glider... some bolts just might come loose at random times :stirpot::compbash2:

but that's what the emergency ditch systems are for - don't eject - instead, dump your fuel then glide back to safety (if possible)



anyways, this is not a fighter jet either - so we ca rule out the possibility of parts of the airframe being ripped out mid-flight by any forces other than gigantic pilot errors....

again, THERE WILL BE NO EJECTION SEATS - it's just not a good idea


allow me to translate for clarity to my countrymen:

- Não haverá qualquer tipo sistema de ejeção - em caso de emergência, a tripulação é aconselhada a esvaziar os tanques de combustivel e planar para um pouso em segurança sobre o oceano

Assentos ejetores são sistemas complexos, perigosos e demasiadamente pesados para uma nave desta categoria - e principalmente, não trazem nenhum beneficio à segurança da tripulação na grande maioria dos casos, muito pelo contrário, em geral, ejetar de uma espaçonave é simplesmente suicídio....

Agradeço a compreenção


ok, that oughta end that bickering




meanwhile, minor progress update - i've changed the general layout of the cockpit frames a bit - it looks more solid now and i think it should be better to read


check it out:

i went for a delta-glider's-2d-panel-like layout... or my idea of how that would turn out in 3d

i have yet to fix the positions on those buttons.... they're a bit off now...

and i figure i just might make them little boxes... it'll look better than a textured strip, i think - and makes sense to not have unreliable touchscreen setups on the less-than-casual ride that is a trip to space :hmm:

i'm no i-pod fanboy either... :lol:


i'll have another upload shortly, as soon as i can get the buttons back in place and working... i want some feedback on the new flight dynamics

i figure if it's easier to fly, i can add more complex systems without overwhelming the pilot....


well, later....

 

[Usquanigo]

Looks good! But I have to say, I'm a fan of the previous layout with the angled screens. I think it looks better than the flat dash. (IMO)

The buttons could be handled in a few ways - generally MFDs have hard buttons on the outside of the screen, so that's legit. Alternatly, the buttons could themselves be little LCD screen buttons (there is even an entire keyboard made out of those things), so they could me both physical buttons AND little displays (kind of a hybrid concept) - even if the display died, it's still a physical button. Or, of course, you could just widen the frame and make the buttons touch screen style buttons. But you don't seem keen on that (which is ok ).

You made a comment earlier about ISP. You've increased it to fictional levels? This is the one thing I really feared - all that cargo space and a low wing besides, plus all the engines on board and all the crew... even with dense fuels and using the atmosphere and it's overall size, it just did not quite seem doable today - however, with the cargo area being additional fuel (only), and especially with a high wing, it would seem much more plausible.

Anyway.... is there any chance you could do an XR series style config file where we can edit the values? Kero/LOX only puts out so much, and it burns at a given rate, so it's more about the total amount of fuel on-board and liquids don't like to compress. Although..... that said, using the atmo as extra reaction mass would surely extend things quite a bit.... hmm :hmm:, so maybe it's not so far off afterall (but I still think the cargo should be just a fuel tank :lol: ) - but the config file would still be cool anyway!


Looking forward to the next release.

Not using the CoG or trim and a keyboard makes for a WILD ride in the current WIP2. lol Once I hit about M3.5-ish and around 40Km, the control surfaces stop working and the RAMCASTERs combine with the parabolic flight path, take me into really thin air and start flipping it backwards uncontrollably. I have to kill the engines and wait for it to fall back down into thicker air and recover. Of course, I'm sure the real thing would have ripped apart in the process..... but it was all pilot error (not the machines fault) :embarrassed:

 

[Moach]

(...)You made a comment earlier about ISP. You've increased it to fictional levels? (...)

fictional? no... i made a comment about how cool it was that they were so close to realistic - so it's quite the contrary :thumbup: - you can be happy again!


the G42 is capable of SSTO because of three main factors -

1 - the engines can adapt to perform as airbreathers up to mach 18... which makes for unprecedented ISP values on spacecraft

2 - the ship without any fuel wheighs less than 40 tons, since it's made mostly of composite plastics and other highly advanced materials (such as carbon nanotubes)

3 - the starliner has a lot of lift due to those large wings, so it can rest it's weight upon them as it accelerates through the atmosphere - sparing the engines from having to fight gravity while the ship is heaviest


it's a possible concept! i wouldn't feel good about doing it if it wasn't :tiphat:



about the mfd buttons - they will in fact have little lcds inside... like the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard"]optimus keyboard[/ame] (which is OMG awesome)

it's gonna look really cool, i think :hmm:

 

[GuiConteDGIV2X]

:beathead::beathead::beathead::beathead::beathead: NICE NOW IF I CRASH MY SHIP I WILL SAY BYE BYE FOR MY JOB,FAMILY AND ALL!!! >=(

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:26 PM ----------

and weight is very bad because vanguard payload bay full of fuel and the vanguard weight make the additional fuel over before i reach t orbit.
But will G42 have additional fuel or additional LOX for a little more bigger orbiter like Intermediate Earth orbit (IEO) to deploy a extremely important satellite cuz people will make addons on orbithangar to expand the experience on you ship i liked the SABRE Engines

Any english ploblems i will edit later =)

 

[Moach]

the G42 has enough fuel to lift small satellites and payloads into orbit... it's not the best idea to try and haul as much stuff as you would with the XR5....

in the event of a heavy-lift takeoff, or for taking off with drop-tanks for an off-plane launch, DARTs (Disposable Auxiliary Rocket Thrusters) can be installed to help get the ship off the ground....


and if you crash, indeed, you're gonna die - you would die also if you ejected, so the best solution here is to simply -not- crash...
i hear that's an actual possibility

 

[Wonderer]

If you crash, aim for something and if you hit that something, you'll still be happy