Heavy fighting in South Ossetia.

[Tex]

Darn, I just spent 30 minutes typing a rebuttal, and the forum logged me out. I just don't have the energy to retype.

Here's a summary:

I am a LCDR in the US Navy with combat experience in 3 wars / conflicts. I am also a Weapons and Tactics Instructor that has both developed new tactics and taught those tactics to the fleet.

Go pills were blamed by the F-16 National Guard pilots that killed the Canadians. It was a ploy to distract from the fact that they blatently violated procedures and ROE.

Gulf War I was nothing like OEF nor OIF. Friendlies operated an order of magnitude closer to the enemy during the latter wars.

The situation will change multiple times between the time a pilot is briefed and the time he employs his weapon. No brief can cover the future.

The only time I've seen a case of someone being "trigger happy" occured during an air defense exercise (ADEX). That pilot got a face to face meeting with the two star Strike Group Admiral. He also had to go to every squadron and explain why what he did was wrong.

I could go on, but I'm probably wasting my breath anyway.

First of all, sorry the forum logged you out leading to a lost post, I know how you feel. :sorry: I always copy the entire post before submitting it. Just highlight it all and hit Ctrl+C, so worst case you can post it after you log back in by simply pasting it.

Secondly, I think you're post is directed at the wrong person. I wasn't taking any side about "go pills" or trigger happy US troops. I also wasn't actually sure if we did have real military leaders here, so my apologies to those people, no offense was intended toward them.

I was in the Army myself, though never saw combat and we were NEVER given any kind of drugs nor even discussed them. I was simply agreeing with Andy's post. It just seems certain people on this forum and all forums for that matter seem to have a "know it all" attitude and are amazingly good at calling shots from an arm chair. It's totally different when you're actually in situations like these we discuss on a forum.

 

[DanP]

Dan, Go pills were offered to us by our flight docs during OIF and OEF. I don't know many Navy pilots on my boat that used them...they were kind of a pain in the a**. You had to take downers when you were done flying so that you could get some sleep. In addition, they really dehydrated you...which is rough since the flight deck is like 130F in the Gulf.

I have heard, but have no proof, that the USAF used them a lot. Take into consideration though that the B-2 and B-1 crews often flew from the US and those missions were sometimes over 24 hours long. Even the fighters were flying 10-12 hours missions every day.

My missions were only half as long, and I was TIRED. So I don't really blame AF pilots for using them. I have no idea if the Army uses them or not.

If an a LCDR in the US Navy is telling me go-pills were used, I can't argue with that

I still highly doubt any so-called "extensive use" by modern armed forces. Of all the accounts I've read of battles where airmen had to fly very long missions or a high sortie rate, I've never heard of go-pills being issued. RAF in BoB, IAF in 1973, etc... Pilots always say it was exhaustion beyond belief, but not a word about go-pills. Same for ground forces engaged in continuous fighting... Although I'm much better informed about aviation.

It will be interesting to see what else comes up about the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe Native Son will be able to tell us something about the Army.

 

[SiberianTiger]

A picture of the fighting by the Human Rights Watch:

Georgia/Russia: Do Not Attack Civilians in South Ossetia


-----Posted Added-----


The Ambassador or Russia to UN explains the official position of Russia in an interview for CNN:

 

[cjp]

Another armchair general logging in here

(I've read the last 3 pages of the thread. I hope my point hasn't already been mentioned in the other pages)

I've had a look at the map of Georgia, and I noticed that the northern border with Russia consists of high mountains. South Ossetia, with a border and an important tunnel to Russia, connects Russia with the valleys in central Georgia.

If I'm correct, it must be a huge strategic disadvantage for Georgia as long as South Ossetia is controlled by Russia. If Georgia can control the mountains in the north and the tunnel, they might still have a chance to the much larger Russian army. With an "independent" South Ossetia, it's more like having a highway connection for Russian tanks to the Georgian capital.

Somehow I think this whole war has absolutely nothing to do with the people who live in South Ossetia. They are just being used in a larger scale conflict about Georgia's independence from Russia.

Would it be acceptable to Russia if Georgia accepted South Ossetian independence, but also gained control of the mountains and the tunnel? OTOH, could South Ossetia really be independent from Georgia in such a scenario?

 

[SiberianTiger]

Human Rights Watch Q & A: Violence in South Ossetia

An article that mentions the interest that the West takes in Georgian conflict:

The excuses only go so far. The Russians are not fighting Georgia to defend the rights of small nations. They also want to remind Europe where much of its energy comes from. A secure pipeline through Georgia would enable the West to receive oil supplies from Azerbaijan which did not pass through Russian territory. That pipeline is no longer secure, which is why Georgia is more than a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing.

 

[Notebook]

Looks like a land grab, before the talks start:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm

N.

 

[Moonwalker]

American troops are extremely well trained, but at the start of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts they were not trained in the type of fighting they encountered on the ground.

...or what some Iraqi encounter on the ground. American troops may be well trained. But still i think that also there are a lot of morons within the US army which doesn't make me wonder about friendly fire and other things...

[ame="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=977_1218460000"]LiveLeak.com - Iraqi Woman Almost Gets Blown Up By EOD Detonation In Iraq[/ame]

This by far is not an individual case. It's one of a lot of individual cases. And it's not presented by Michael Moore.

 

[Cairan]

The Rise of the New Russian Empire

I've watched back for the past few days the course these events are taking, and putting them in context with the current oil issues, it's beginning to look a lot like the plot is strait out of Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising... except this time it's not the USSR which is having internal supplies issues, it's that Putin et al. want to control supply to Europe.


Let's take a step back... We've had the Ukrainian elections of 2004, with the dioxin poisoning of Vikto Yushchenko, the cut-off by Gazprom of supply to Ukraine and Belarus with apparent political motives, and recently the radioactive poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. Let's also not forget the regrouping of the oil industry very close to the Russian government.

Add on top of that the current strategic importance of Georgia, and the move of Russia deeper inside Georgia, beyond South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and the picture becomes clear...

Eventually, eastern and even central Europe will have to eat out of Putin's hand to keep warm in winter...

I hope we are not being witness to a come-back of the Cold War, warmed up by our dwindling fossil fuel supplies...

 

[SiberianTiger]

Looks like a land grab, before the talks start:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm

N.

The pace is way too amazing. I think there's a heavy collaboration out there.

 

[Urwumpe]

The pace is way too amazing. I think there's a heavy collaboration out there.

Amazing? In the times, Russia had been called USSR and had worse tanks as today, the German defense strategy was delaying the Warsaw pact troops as good as possible to make sure you stay in Germany when the NATO reinforcements arrive. The base I later served in (50 km behind the former border) would have been behind the front line after about 8 hours in the most optimistic plan.

And Germany had about 500,000 soldiers more in the army during the height of the cold war as Georgia today.


(The ending of the worst case plan for Germany: Germany gets turned into a nuclear wasteland for the sake of protecting the western member states)

 

[SiberianTiger]

I've watched back for the past few days the course these events are taking, and putting them in context with the current oil issues, it's beginning to look a lot like the plot is strait out of Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising... except this time it's not the USSR which is having internal supplies issues, it's that Putin et al. want to control supply to Europe.

Can't see many happy faces around this Monday. I was going to buy some real estate next year through getting a mortgage loan: now I'm not sure if it will ever be a possibility.

BTW, what happens has nothing to do with Clancy's poor plots. It's also likely that the world's attention will be driven to another spot on the map very soon: what it that large move of US warships into the Gulf of Persia?

 

[Urwumpe]

BTW, what happens has nothing to do with Clancy's poor plots. It's also likely that the world's attention will be driven to another spot on the map very soon: what it that large move of US warships into the Gulf of Persia?

Well, Georgia borders to Iran, what do you think will happen when the war turns into a direct Russia-NATO clash (which is pretty unlikely, though it would be a pretty good last point of return for Russia and the NATO)

 

[SiberianTiger]

The base I later served in (50 km behind the former border) would have been behind the front line after about 8 hours in the most optimistic plan.

There are no reports of the towns dusted to the ground. It looks like the troops are advancing not meeting much resistance. Compare it with some real war, not a hypothetical one and see what I mean.


-----Posted Added-----

Well, Georgia borders to Iran, what do you think will happen when the war turns into a direct Russia-NATO clash (which is pretty unlikely, though it would be a pretty good last point of return for Russia and the NATO)

I think they will bargain at some point.

 

[Urwumpe]

There are no reports of the towns dusted to the ground. It looks like the troops are advancing not meeting much resistance. Compare it with some real war, not a hypothetical one and see what I mean.

The latest pictures do not look like a hypothetical war, there had been quite some fighting around Gori before the Georgians started to retreat to defend Tiflis this afternoon.

Until this noon, there had been German TV teams active in the region, but now, there are only satellite telephone reports.

I would expect them to secure western Georgia first before sieging Tiflis, so the Russian troops on the eastern front should advance slower while the western troops secure the territory behind. The deployment of the Russian navy in the black sea coast of Georgia also speaks for that scenario.

 

[SiberianTiger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm
This could get nasty.
N.

You were right. According to the latest gossip:

(1) Georgian armored units and bulk of the army are still concentrated eastwards of Tshinvali where they are getting pounded by artillery fire from the Russian side

(2) This left nearly all the west of the country naked

(3) About 4000 Russian troops crossed the border of Abkhazia and entered the town of Zugdidi without firing, the Abkhaz troops said to be dealing with Georgians in the valley of Kodor meanwhile

(4) After that an advance allowed to cut the road connecting Eastern Georgia with the Black Sea coast and ports of Batumi and Poti

(5) 58th army has taken Senaki, a big Georgian army training base in Western Georgia. An elite Chechen force is reconning the road to Kutaisi.

(6) A sea drop is going on in Poti.

(7) Gori is left by Georgian staff and main forces, but the Russians don't enter the town, avoiding battle on the streets

(8) President Saakashvili calls up his people to arms and defence of Tbilisi

(9) Many foreign citizens are being evacualted to Turkey

(10) There are fleeing preperations for Saakashvili himself

(11) There are riots on the streets of Tbilisi, rioters fight police

 

[Cairan]

BTW, what happens has nothing to do with Clancy's poor plots. It's also likely that the world's attention will be driven to another spot on the map very soon: what it that large move of US warships into the Gulf of Persia?

Most if not almost all of Clancy's book sucks, but Red Storm Rising stands out as a good one, albeit he had a lot of help putting it together and the dialogs are so corny you can solve all the world's energy problems making ethanol out of it...

I am very well aware of the recent naval deployment to Iran and that's part of what worries me as far as the big picture goes...

See, with the US unilateral invasion of Irak, without a UN mandate, the Bush administration kind of forfeited any possibility for the US to demand that other powers respect international laws and treaties. So if the invasion of Irak was viewed as a matter of defending the national security interests of the US, then Russia can argue that invading Georgia to protect it's 'citizens' in South Ossetia is actually a defensive move...

So without any possibility of international law being applied and upheld by these two mighty powers, I can clearly see that the US might be tempted to pressure Iran. With the collaboration between Teheran and Moscow, and Georgia being neutralized, I can envision Putin telling the US to keep off Iran or else... cut down the supplies to Europe. What would not be sold to Europe would be available for India and China, and even at a lower volume, the highest price of oil on world markets would make up for the loss.

It's all about control and profit. It's just that now the US doesn't play the game alone anymore and it's back to "2 Players Mode".

 

[SlyCoopersButt]

I've long foresaw Russia being on Tehrans side in my mind. Russia has too many assets and investments there to allow them to be endangered. If the U.S. does try doing something funny there, Russia is going to have something very big to say about it to say the very least. And if the cold war is to be born again, I believe it's going to be the United States fault. It's always trying to put it's finger into affairs it has no bussiness in until it gets bit.

 

[Native Son]

I've long foresaw Russia being on Tehrans side in my mind. Russia has too many assets and investments there to allow them to be endangered. If the U.S. does try doing something funny there, Russia is going to have something very big to say about it to say the very least. And if the cold war is to be born again, I believe it's going to be the United States fault. It's always trying to put it's finger into affairs it has no bussiness in until it gets bit.

It may seem like that, but I believe the US always has reasons to get their nose dirty, whether we know about it or not. Just a general half-truth at the least.

 

[Notebook]

BBC World affairs correspondent, Paul Reynolds points on the situation:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7553390.stm

N.

 

[Native Son]

BBC World affairs correspondent, Paul Reynolds points on the situation:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7553390.stm

N.

The last question he wrote was very striking.