Flight Question Direct reentry Moon>Earth or other

XonE32

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Hi all Orbinauts,

I have a question re a specific part of the direct reentry setup for say moon to earth but would also like to be able to apply to say an Earth to Mars trip. I have searched "Direct Reentry" and have found a few informative threads but they don't answer my specific question. I only find one aspect of the setup difficult to determine (we'll use the moon to earth example as it's simpler).

I'd like to be able to setup ANY Pet or GET (ie flight time) and be able to fast forward the scenario so that the moon is in the right position so that I hit EI in the right place for XR2 direct reenty to a specific base.

First off great work Tommy and Mark316 for Toutrial 4 included with the Full IMFD manual which is also a great piece of work. Everything I learned about direct reentry I got from that...very helpful.

As such I'll use that tutorial to illustrate what I'm attempting to ask.
In the tutorial re: the "Magic Number" for GET it says:

Set the GET under PeT to 143:30:00. See the manual in your docs folder to see how I got this number.
OK, here’s how to get that magic number. When you set TEj to 6400, there is a GET number directly under that. A few lines down, there is another GET number (much greater, probably around 130:00:00). Open up Map MFD in the right hand MFD, and set the reference to Earth. Now take note of this second, larger GET number (YOU WILL NEED TO REMEMBER THIS NUMBER!) and CAREFULLY time warp until the first GET number reaches it. Slow down to normal time, and set the target in the map MFD to moon (hit the <TGT> button and type in ―moon‖). There should be a little yellow cross, indicating the moon’s position above the Earth’s surface. Time warp some more (again SLOWLY) until the cross is over the east coast of Africa. Slow to normal time and look at the first (upper) GET number. That is the magic number, in this case 143:30:00. In the scenario ―Landed at Brighton Beach‖ in the Scenarios\XR2 Ravenstar folder, 137:30:00 works. Now that you have this number, either use Scenario editor to set the date back to the original starting date, or restart the scenario. To set that number, there is a button <ADJ> (hit <PG> if you don’t see it). There is grey font on the bottom, Adj-_ _ x. Options are 1x, 10x, or 100x. Hit <ADJ> to cycle through these. 1x is used for adjusting seconds, 10x for minutes, and 100x for hours.
More to my point it also says:

An alternative to the Magic Number method is to open up Map MFD, set target to Moon, then set target to the base you want to land on, then time warp until the longitude of the Moon is 50 degrees west of the longitude of your base, then set GET under PET to 137:30:00. This method is pretty accurate and has worked 100% of the time in my personal experience.
This second quote is great as it gets close to the info I want, but the example used is 50 degrees for 137 hrs of flight time.

Could you apply this same technique and use a little math to find any value of the degrees for any PET/GET?

For instance: I want to go from Brighton to Ascension.
First I assume I need to fast forward ANY scenario so that the min/max Eqi is low enough that I can input -6 or so degrees as the Eqi for Ascension as it's Latitude is 7. something degrees South.

Now lets say I want my flight time (GET) to be 22hrs or whatever. Surely there must be a corresponding degree value as in the example above. Could I not use some simple math based on the 50 degrees for 137hrs example above to find out what the degrees value should be for a flight time of 22hrs?

I know there's some simple math here I just don't know how it's arrived at.
Hopefully my question isn't too convoluted to answer lol.

Cheers

XonE32
 

dgatsoulis

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Hi XonE32,

Here is what i do and it works 100% of the time.
After leaving Moon's SOI set up a base approach plan for an orbit insertion on IMFD.
Target the base of your choice to see the coordinates on the upper left corner and then set the coordinates for the EXACT OPPOSITE side of the planet.
(example: WIN=14.43W 7.95S Op.side=165.57E 7.95N - All you have to do is subtract from 180 the longitude and switch the "horizontal" direction. For the lattitude just change the "vertical" direction).
Then set your PeA to an altitude that would be ok to aerobrake in. (For a 22h flight from the Moon, you should have a speed of about 11.5 Km/s when you hit Earth's atmosphere, so you should set you PeA to about 71-72k to be safe).

First I assume I need to fast forward ANY scenario so that the min/max Eqi is low enough that I can input -6 or so degrees as the Eqi for Ascension as it's Latitude is 7. something degrees South.

Actually that's not neccesary. You can take off any time you want.

Hope this helps. I always use this method when i approach a planet with an atmosphere and it has never failed me.

On the (very rare) occassion that you don't get "valid" burn data for an orbit insertion burn on the "opposite side" coordinates, you can use the "right" ones.

Hope my post makes sense.
:cheers:
 
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XonE32

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Hi Xon32,

Here is what i do and it works 100% of the time.
After leaving Moon's SOI set up a base approach plan for an orbit insertion on IMFD.
Target the base of your choice to see the coordinates on the upper left corner and then set the coordinates for the EXACT OPPOSITE side of the planet.
(example: WIN=14.43W 7.95S Op.side=165.57E 7.95N - All you have to do is subtract from 180 the longitude and switch the "horizontal" direction. For the lattitude just change the "vertical" direction).
Then set your PeA to an altitude that would be ok to aerobrake in. (For a 22h flight from the Moon, you should have a speed of about 11.5 Km/s when you hit Earth's atmosphere, so you should set you PeA to about 71-72k to be safe).



Actually that's not neccesary. You can take off any time you want.

Hope this helps. I always use this method when i approach a planet with an atmosphere and it has never failed me.

On the (very rare) occassion that you don't get "valid" burn data for an orbit insertion burn on the "opposite side" coordinates, you can use the "right" ones.

Hope my post makes sense.
:cheers:

Thansk dg, yep that makes sense. I'll try it for fun for sure.

The only issue (and why I mentioned the Eqi) was I was starting from the surface launch program in which you first have to input the proper Eqi into the Planet Approach page.
And mainly I was curious about the mathematical relationship mentioned in the tutorial between the 50 degrees west of selected base and the 137hr GET...or even if there is a relationship lol.

I did a moon>earth transit last night of 20hrs that was incorrectly set up from the get-go. EI took place roughly 20 deg east of Ascension (where I wanted to land lol) and to boot my interface speed was 12.6 Km/s.
It made for a very interesting (and successful) Aerobrake around 90% of the planet.

Gonna give yer way a go now, but if anyone can explain the mathematical relationship above please do.

Cheers!


Well it definitely works, but I either did something wrong or it's not as precise as I'd like. In the tutorial, Tommy comes in approx 9700km from KSC does a direct reentry and then normal reentry the rest of the way.
Again I probably did something wrong, but using your method my EI was over the Indian Ocean at 12.40km/s. The speed was no prob, but it just meant I had an overly long aerobrake to Ascension lol.
When u use your method dg do you input 90 for Ant on the Base Approach screen?
 
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dgatsoulis

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When u use your method dg do you input 90 for Ant on the Base Approach screen?
I don't input anything on Ant, it's an Orbit-insertion plan on Base Approach of IMFD not a Reentry (or Reentry-old) one. So those variables cannot be selected. (IMFD 5.3)

The idea is that (while you are still away from the planet) you lower your Periapsis on the coordinates that are on the other side (opposite of your target base) and begin to aerobrake there. It always gets you in an orbit that passes over your target base.
You are right about it not being as precise as Tommy's direct reentry, but it works everytime and you don't have to "exit and restart" or use the scenario editor or anything.

It would be quite interesting to learn WHY Tommy's approach works and how does he get that "50 degrees to the west of the base" number.

Have fun, happy orbitting
:cheers:
 

XonE32

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I don't input anything on Ant, it's an Orbit-insertion plan on Base Approach of IMFD not a Reentry (or Reentry-old) one. So those variables cannot be selected. (IMFD 5.3)

Ahh, I see. I was looking for direct reentry as I know how to aerobrake, but thanks for the response all the same. I'll definitely keep the "opposite long/lat" info in my brain for emergencies. Also, the Ant as you probably know is the estimated degree differential between your selected base and Atmos interface... so wouldn't an Ant of 180 degs be the same as reversing the long/lat as you mentioned?

It would be quite interesting to learn WHY Tommy's approach works and how does he get that "50 degrees to the west of the base" number.

Hehe I know. I keep wondering
1) If there is a Mathematical relationship between the 50 deg & 137 hr GET
2) What it is (ie is it a ratio?)
3) How to apply it to any scenario using surface launch program, a wide variety of PET's and proper Direct Reentry.
 

jarmonik

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1) If there is a Mathematical relationship between the 50 deg & 137 hr GET
2) What it is (ie is it a ratio?)
3) How to apply it to any scenario using surface launch program, a wide variety of PET's and proper Direct Reentry.

I am not exactly sure what you are talking about. But the ration is approximately the rotation period of the planet per 360 degrees. That ration can be used to compute a PeT that is required to reach a specific longitude when one PeT/Lng pair is known. That ration will give you the time that need to be added to PeT so that the reentry location will shift x degrees.
 
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XonE32

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I am not exactly sure what you are talking about. But the ration is approximately the rotation period of the planet per 360 degrees. That ration can be used to compute a PeT that is required to reach a specific longitude when one PeT/Lng pair is known. That ration will give you the time that need to be added to PeT so that the reentry location will shift x degrees.

Hi jarmonik,

hehe, I'm not surprised you're not sure what I'm getting at. I had a tough time trying to put my question into words so people would understand what I'm asking. By the way, is "ration" in your post just a typo for "ratio"? I assume it is.

Basically, in the tutorial that Tommy and Mark 316 did, they came up with that second quote I mentioned in my first post and here below:
An alternative to the Magic Number method is to open up Map MFD, set target to Moon, then set target to the base you want to land on, then time warp until the longitude of the Moon is 50 degrees west of the longitude of your base, then set GET under PET to 137:30:00. This method is pretty accurate and has worked 100% of the time in my personal experience.
I'm just trying to figure out what the degree value of 50 would change to or even IF it would change if say you wanted to change the PET from 137 to another number... 67hrs (half of 137 or whatever).
 

dgatsoulis

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@XonE32
so wouldn't an Ant of 180 degs be the same as reversing the long/lat as you mentioned?

Exactly my thought when i first found out the "opposite side" method! :thumbup:

But for some reason, it doesn't work as well as the other one.
Here is a pic of a Orbit-insert plan (left) and a Reentry plan (right) on IMFD's Base Approach panel. Look at how high the Reentry Angle has to be to get about the same dv. (And for some reason that i don't fully understand, i end up burning in the atmosphere when i use the one on the right - Probably because of the high Reentry Angle).
MOON2EARTH.jpg

The pic is just after i left the Moon's SOI.
The plans above are for a 16 hour transfer from BB to Overton Island.

I'm not saying that my method is the best. But it's the only one i have found that gets the job done every time.

Good job on starting this thread!:thumbup:
I had the same questions that you have, but i never bothered to ask anyone, because i had found a (relatively) easy method to follow, that got me very close to the results i needed.

@Jarmonik
First, let me take this opportunity to thank you for all the wonderfull work you've done on all your addons.

But the ration is approximately the rotation period of the planet per 360 degrees. That ration can be used to compute a PeT that is required to reach a specific longitude when one PeT/Lng pair is known. That ration will give you the time that need to be added to PeT so that the reentry location will shift x degrees.

I'm sure that some of the people in this forum completetely understand the answer you just gave, but is there anyway you could explain it again, in an "IMFD for dummies" dialect? So sorry, but i couldn't understand it.

Respectfully,
Dimitris
 
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XonE32

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@XonE32
Exactly my thought when i first found out the "opposite side" method! :thumbup:

But for some reason, it doesn't work as well as the other one.
Here is a pic of a Orbit-insert plan (left) and a Reentry plan (right) on IMFD's Base Approach panel. Look at how high the Reentry Angle has to be to get about the same dv. (And for some reason that i don't fully understand, i end up burning in the atmosphere when i use the one on the right - Probably because of the high Reentry Angle).

Hmm, not only is that odd, it's really good to know lol. Another little tidbit you have delivered which I'll remember.

I must be dim, cause I can't figure out the relationship mentioned above.
Heh I'd be fired as the pilot for this trans-lunar service for sure.
I keep attempting to do some simple maths to find the proper moon longitude for a 24hr flight and I keep getting it wrong lol.

Just flew one and had to adjust it so I ended up in the right place for direct reentry 90 degrees from Ascension (ie longtitude 104 deg). the adjustment made me 9hrs late because I didn't pick the proper lunar position initially.

The passengers weren't impressed.

---------- Post added 06-05-10 at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was 06-04-10 at 07:44 PM ----------

Well as I haven't figured the mathematical relationship yet with regard to lunar surface launch, TEj, GET, and Lunar longitudinal position on the Map MFD. I have to use educated guesses. Hopefully once I get the lunar position right I'll be able to figure it out regularly.

First test: Lunar Longitude on Map MFD = 140E
TEj and GET need to remain the same for all tests: TEj=6400 GET=22:00:00
Target Base will always be Ascension as that also needs to remain the same. Ascension long is 14.5w (approx) so you'd want a reentry EI of 104W, But I'm finding IMFD and a light XR2 are very forgiving... nice work to Jarmo and the XR2 crew!

After TEI I checked the IMFD map and it showed an Earth reentry Longitude of 54W. (50 degrees off.. Bah!)
Had to adjust ANT to 45.9 from 90 to match proper PET to keep it in line with my 22hr flight time. Landed 10 minutes early lol.

Quite the reentry. EI was only 40 degrees west of ascension at 12km/s.
Very Hot, very short, and very fun but 140E lunar position at launch is not correct.

I saved the reentry .scn and can strip it down of everything but the XR2 and Wideawake if anyone wants to give it a go as it's a pretty fun ride without a lot of room for error lol.;)

---------- Post added at 08:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

Success, same setup but used lunar longitudinal position on the Map MFD of 90E.
Gave me an EI reentry longitude of 108W (pretty close to the desired 104W)
After adjusting Ant so Hint and PET matched; the 7 second correction burn put the new EI reentry longitude at 104W.

Now to figure out why a Brighton>Ascension direct reentry trip with a TEj of 6400 and GET of 22hrs works almost perfectly when the Lunar Longitude position on the map MFD is at 90E at time of launch from Brighton.

I hope it's not something silly like 90deg + 14deg (long of Ascension) =104 deg lol.
 
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dgatsoulis

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EDIT: I thought i was on to something. Until i realised (of course) that i had made a :suicide: mistake! For some stupid reason, i thought that the Earth is rotating clockwise as seen from the north pole, while in fact it rotates counter-clockwise. :beathead:

That came to my mind as i was almost half-way writing this post. I'll go ahead and post my thoughts anyway, perhaps someone can help me find out if i was on to something with this train of thought or not. (With the exception of the wrong rotating direction :lol: ).

(Remember, when i was writting this, i had the crazy idea that the sun rises from the west! :lol:)

First let's look at Map MFD and see what those "50 degrees to the west of the base" mean...

Have a look at this pic:

moon2earth2.jpg


Imagine that your point of view is far above the north pole. Your target base is 14.43 degrees to the left (west) of 0 and the moon (projected on earth's surface) is at 64.43 degrees west (14.43+50)

The total flight time is 137.5 hours minus the 6400 secs to get to the ejection point which makes us 135.72 hours of transfer time. (To get from the moon's Pe to Earth's Pe) During those 135.72 hours, the earth will have completed 5.655 rotations. So that's 5 full rotations + 235.83 degrees.

From that starting point (14.43 west) the base will be at 235.83+14.43=250.26 degrees clockwise (STUPID) from 0, when our spacecraft arrives.(That's what that blurry red line in the pic says).

It kinda worked for elliptic transfers, but a hyperbolic one must be a whole other game. In a transfer with eccentricity (relative to earth) <1 you are leaving from the moons "back-side" to reach the earth's "back-side" :lol:

On a hyperbolic one, you are leaving the moon somewhere on it's side and reach the earth at some other point. :shrug:

EDIT: Of course all that "constructive thinking" was absolute nonsense as it was a case of "adjusting the universe to my needs".

But there must be some connection between the flight time, the earth's rotation and the moon's projection on the earth's surface, no?

Hope someone else learns from my mistake!
 
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XonE32

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But there must be some connection between the flight time, the earth's rotation and the moon's projection on the earth's surface, no?

Heh, there is dg there is. Unfortunately it's on the tip of my brain and it's staying there. Once it's sorted we'll kick ourselves as I just don't think it's that complex.

But that is why I used the numbers above for my testing (90E for moon long, 6400 TEj & 22hr GET). It's close to 24 hrs which is a fun transfer time and easier on the head.
I'll choose another GET in a bit, find the correct longitude of the moon, test away and compare.
 

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But for some reason, it doesn't work as well as the other one.
Here is a pic of a Orbit-insert plan (left) and a Reentry plan (right) on IMFD's Base Approach panel. Look at how high the Reentry Angle has to be to get about the same dv. (And for some reason that i don't fully understand, i end up burning in the atmosphere when i use the one on the right - Probably because of the high Reentry Angle).
MOON2EARTH.jpg

The "Alt" parameter in the left mfd is the altitude of periapis when in the right mfd it's the altitude of the re-entry interface. (Usually 120k)

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

But there must be some connection between the flight time, the earth's rotation and the moon's projection on the earth's surface, no?

There are some this kind of calculations for Earth->Moon transfer made in a book "Fundamentals of astrodynamics ISBN 0-486-60061-0" it has become very classic within the Orbiter community. Chapter 7 page 321. (some parts can be viewed in google.books)

Tehnically it should be very simple if you want to use projections in the Earth's surface.

Periapis(reentry) = Moon(launch) + Transfer angle + 360 * Transfer time/86400.

Transfer angle for 24h return time is approximately +-150 degrees (+-) is depending from flight direction. If the transfer time is 24h then the last term can be neglected because it would be 360 degrees (i.e. 0)

Transfer angle can be approximated from the graphics of Planet Approach program. IMFD do know the transfer angle but doesn't display it.
 

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There is a trick to a direct re-entry, and like almost every advanced maneuver, the trick is in the timing. To plan this type of flight you need the following information:

1: Moon's longitude at ejection. This can be found by opening a MapMFD and setting the reference to Earth, Target Moon. An hour or two either way doesn't matter much - if launching soon you can usually just use the current position rather than have to "predict" exactly where it will be at ejection.

2: Transfer Angle. For a Hohman type transfer that will be about 180 degrees. For your 24 hour trip, it will be less - you are coming in on a hyperbolic trajectory, and your Earth Pe won't be opposite (in a non-rotating reference) the lunar ejection point. jarmonik's 150 degrees sounds about right.

3: Time of Flight. The more accurate, the better, but keep in mind that this can be adjusted during MCC's if needed. Arriving on schedule is essential if you need high accuracy (ie for a capsule re-entry). It is rarely helpful to include flight time in the atmosphere if it will be an unusually long re-entry.

4: Rotation of target body. The Earth rotates 15 degrees per hour.

5: Re-entry Anticipation. This is the distance (in degrees) from entry interface to touchdown. This can vary greatly with the type of vessel and how the re-entry is flown. With glider type vessels, it is better to guess high than low - a glider can easily travel over 360 degrees during a direct re-entry - to avoid overshooting the base. Note that this is measured in degrees of Orbit, not degrees of Longitude.

6: Target Longitude.

Using this info, we'll apply jarmonik's formula in a simplified fashion

Step 1. Calculate Earth's rotation during flight. "Wrap around" at 360. For instance, a 24 hour flight will result in a rotation of zero, a 26 hour flight will have a rotation of 30 degrees, and a 22 hour flight would be 330 degrees.

Step 2. Calculate Pe position. This will be determined by the Anticipation, and is that many degrees from the target. Note that this is degrees of Orbit, not degrees Longitude.

Step 3. Add rotation and anticipation, lunar ejection longitude target is that many degrees from the base. Note that this is degrees of Orbit, not Longitude. In a high inclination these can differ greatly. The longitude of this position is the ejection point.

Step 4. Set up TEI, with a focus on matching the PeT to our planned Atmo interface time. Also, set an inclination equal to the target's latitude (north or south depending). Use Map's plan mode, set to highest accuracy. After executing the ejection burn, use forward/reverse linear RCS to fine tune the PeT. The PeA isn't as important at this point, anywhere within a few M should do fine.

Step 5. MCC. This can be made with the best accuracy just after entering the Earth's SOI. This can be done with Base Approach, but I find Delta-V can offer a lower dV (Base Approach tends to take a "brute force" approach on occasion, and is generally less accurate than the Delta-V/Map combo.) Use dVf sparingly (not very efficient at this time) to adjust the PeT if needed, and dVi to manage the PeA. Ensure that you've set your Landing Target (and estimated Landing Time) in IMFD config menu. Use dVp to adjust the Ang (if you don't see it hit <MOD> in Map) to zero. Note that these values will affect each other to some degree, and adjust them all as needed.

If you've guesstimated the rotation elements (transfer angle, Ant, and TOF) correctly, reduced Ang to near zero, and arrive at the planned time you should be good.


Keep in mind that with a DG type vessel, and are willing to sit through a long extended low AoA re-entry, coming in from a hyperbolic trajectory, pretty much every base on the planet is reachable regardless of Pe location or inclination. If you watch my flight from the IMFD manual, I actually arrive a bit west of ideal, and there is a slight "pop-up" after I turn upright to extend the range to reach the Cape. There will be two low AoA extended direct re-entries (one on Earth, one on Titan) in the update in a few weeks, where the initial entry plane isn't aligned with the base, and nearly a full orbit is flown during capture/re-entry.

dgatsoulis: 180 degrees is very high for Ant. It will work (and makes setting the PeA location easier when using your method), but you could go shorter. From the looks of the screenshots, you are arriving at Earth a bit premature. Chances are that lowering the Ant in that situation could provide a lower dV and much lower, survivable ReA. An Ant as low as 120 (maybe a bit more for a higher velocity 24 hour transfer) can be used and still provide ample time for braking.
 

XonE32

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Thanks Tommy and Jarmo for the responses. Think I'm getting there.

1st I think I made an error with regard to TEj and GET. I kept thinking that a Tej of 6400s and a GET of 22hr meant that the mission elapsed time would be close to 24hrs...duh. So yes, my test .scn from Brighton was 22hrs MET not 24.

Transfer angle is new to me, so not sure what 3 points (ie what angle) on the Planet Approach page I should be looking at.

5: Re-entry Anticipation. This is the distance (in degrees) from entry interface to touchdown. This can vary greatly with the type of vessel and how the re-entry is flown. With glider type vessels, it is better to guess high than low - a glider can easily travel over 360 degrees during a direct re-entry - to avoid overshooting the base. Note that this is measured in degrees of Orbit, not degrees of Longitude.
The last bit was very interesting "...degrees of orbit, not longitude".
So my assumption that 90 degrees of Ant for landing at Ascension (14.4W) would put the reentry longitude at 104W was incorrect?

Step 3. Add rotation and anticipation, lunar ejection longitude target is that many degrees from the base. Note that this is degrees of Orbit, not Longitude. In a high inclination these can differ greatly. The longitude of this position is the ejection point.
This makes sense. If I leave Brighton for Ascension with a TEj of 6400s (approx 1hr 47 min) and the Lunar projection on the Map MFD is approx 90E at launch time; at Obit Eject the lunar projection longitude is at approx 62E (ie almost 2hrs = almost 2x15=almost 30deg subtracted from 90E and ya get approx 62E).
That said; a 22hr flight = 330deg + an Ant of 90deg and yer back to the Eject point of approx 62E)

Still not sure on the difference between deg of orbit and deg of longitude.
Unless you are referring to deg of arc?
 

Tommy

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Well, I'm not a math ninja. In fact, I'm not sure I even qualify for a yellow belt.

Transfer angle is new to me, so not sure what 3 points (ie what angle) on the Planet Approach page I should be looking at.
I'm acting as a translator here, jarmonik is way smarter than me, but english isn't his native language. Every single thing he said is "Gospel Truth", but it can be hard to understand how to apply that to the current scenario. I'm trying to apply a few years experience with IMFD, and with jormo's manuals, and put it in terms the (likely less intelligent) rest of us can actually understand.

For starts, a TEj of 6400 seconds is a guess - not terribly accurate, but close enough.

One of the "tricks" to mastering Orbiter is knowing how much "slack" needs to be cut at any given stage. For this flight, cut a lot of "slack" on PeA and Pe Longitude during the TEI, focus on PeT (dVf is efficiently adjusted during the eject burn) and PeA and Pe Latitude (planar) are best adjusted during the MCC (when dVi and dVp are efficient, and dVf isn't). The Oberth Effect matters, so make changes to the amount (dVf) of your velocity when your velocity is high, and make changes to the direction (dVp and dVi) of your velocity when velocities are low. You can use burn view to see the individual axis of thrust IMFD is calling for.

IMFD offers a variable level of usefulness. It can perform simple transfers in the simplest way. Or it can perform very complex maneuvers, but not as easily. It can take a given situation, and help you find the lowest dV solution to that particular situation. It doesn't always help you find a "situation" that allows the lowest dV.

What I'm saying is that, while IMFD makes it relatively easy to make a basic transfer, the accuracy and efficiency of that transfer will be largely dependent on your understanding and skill.

1st I think I made an error with regard to TEj and GET. I kept thinking that a Tej of 6400s and a GET of 22hr meant that the mission elapsed time would be close to 24hrs
Maybe close enough for planning purposes, but a Time Of Flight of 20:13 would have been closer. Add the time it takes to getting from ("now" to the ejection point) + the time from Lunar ejection to Earth Pe, I think you subtracted. Just make sure that your actual PeT matches the plan. You won't be perfect on the ejection unless you launch at exactly the right time. If you figure out how to do that, please let me know!. Sure, the closer you are to "perfect" the more efficient you can be, but really, an hour or two either way isn't significant. PeT is much more important than TEj, and even that has some "slack". Everything has a "window" - there's a very short "perfect" window, and a much longer "darn near perfect" window where the difference is only a few m/s. Given the accuracy limitations of even IMFD's Map, it's OK to be "close, but not perfect" during TEI. PeT is much more crucial (especially at lunar ejection) if you want a short (in time and distance) but survivable entry.

Transfer angle is new to me, so not sure what 3 points (ie what angle) on the Planet Approach page I should be looking at.
On a minimal energy Hohman Lunar-Earth transfer, we reach our periapsis at the opposite side of the (non rotating) reference. This is a transfer angle of 180 degrees. For a quicker transfer, our trajectory will be (from Earth's point of view) an incoming hyperbolic trajectory. This being a "flatter" trajectory, our Pe won't be on the opposite side, it will be nearer. Trajectory Angle is the angle between the vessel's position at lunar ejection and the angle at vessel's Pe. The faster the transit, the shorter the angle, but 90 degrees is the absolute (and non-attainable) limit at the lower end. I'll take jarmonik's word that 150 degrees is close enough for a 24 hour trip.

Still not sure on the difference between deg of orbit and deg of longitude.
Unless you are referring to deg of arc?
Degree of arc is probably the correct term. I'm not real mathematical, but that sounds like the correct term. I mean that a 120 degree anticipation doesn't mean your Pe should be 120 degrees (longitude) west of your target's longitude (unless you are in an equitorial orbit and your target is on the equator). Rather, it should be 120 degrees around a non-rotating reference (the planet's Center of Mass in a constant frame).

Also, keep in mind the difference between PeA and Re-entry Interface. If you have Re-entry Interface set to the same as your desired PeA, you should have a ReA close to zero. Personally, I leave the Entry Interface at 120k, and adjust the Ant for the extra distance. Being consistent on the Aero-capture and Re-entry stages helps - practice, practice, ... . And again, I'll stress that the more range your vessel has the more slack you can cut. A capsule has very limited range and even less cross-range so accuracy counts. A DG or similar can handle just about anything - but getting it "right" will mean an easier and faster re-entry.

From your last post, you are close to getting it. Hopefully this helps a bit, but I know I'm not explaining it very well.

As I said earlier, timing is everything - especially PeT. If you end up with a very steep ReA, you are arriving at the wrong time (and the window for arrival at a given position is VERY short), probably too soon. If you are arriving too late, Base Approach will call for a larger dVf value - and this is quite inefficient except at the ejection point.

As with all operations, proper planning is the key to efficiency. Know your 6 datapoints in advance, and follow the plan. Know when to cut "slack" and for what variables. At ejection, cut slack in the dVi and dVp vectors, and be precise in the dVf vector. Be picky about the Earth PeT, and not the PeA or Plane. At MCC, do th opposite, and be picky about PeA and Pe location (but not so much PeT - as long as the location and Ang are correct).

Above all, experiment. It's clear you do that, never be afraid to try adjusting something without being told to first. Pay attention to what variables can be adjusted, and try to imagine how it will shape your trajectory. Especially pay attention to what programs like Planet Approach and Base Approach do. First you'll learn how to set up the flight better (ie, using Planet Approach in such a way that it minimizes the burn needed by Base Approach.) Both Planet Approach and Base Approach are handy, but they have limited accuracy (they use a two body solution) compared to Map (but sometimes you can "fudge" things to get a better result in Map - ALWAYS trust Map over any other program). They also need to be within "range". Planet Approach isn't reasonable accurate until you are within 2 or 3 "SOI's" away, and Base Approach not until within the body's SOI. I tend to use Delta-V program for the MCC's, coupled with Map it is much more accurate (and reasonable accurate much sooner), and , for me, easier to find the most efficient trajectory.

i suppose I should point out that for me, fuel efficiency is the primary goal. I'm also not bad at atmospheric re-entries so I'm happy to save a few m/s dV even if it means a less than optimal Pe location.

I mentioned Capsule Re-entries earlier, and for those who are interested - you are likely re-flying the Apollo missions. Follow the mission time-line correctly and landing on target should be fairly easy. If on your own mission, you will need to plan ahead and be fairly precise.
 
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XonE32

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What a great post. Thanks so much Tommy for taking the time and making the effort. I really appreciate it and hopefully anyone else who reads it will too.

It makes me realize that even though I've had Orbiter on my pc since Sept 2006... there is virtually no "finesse" to the way I fly lol. Jarmo has done an absolutely amazing thing in creating IMFD, and I've had it as long as I've had Orbiter. I thought I knew IMFD, but apparently I know the basics (...click target intercept, set target + date, hit orbit eject, press AB and go to Mars). I will definitely pick up the book he mentioned. I did find a NASA PDF from the 1960's that actually focused solely on the whole Moon>Earth transfer. But the .PDF wouldn't load and when selecting "display as HTML" all the figures and equations the authors reference were completely garbled ...d'oh! It was called Moon-to-Earth Trajectories (from 1963) http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19630011448_1963011448.pdf
I mean that a 120 degree anticipation doesn't mean your Pe should be 120 degrees (longitude) west of your target's longitude (unless you are in an equatorial orbit and your target is on the equator). Rather, it should be 120 degrees around a non-rotating reference (the planet's Center of Mass in a constant frame)
Ok, I think I was getting confused because I was headed to Ascension. As its almost on the equator my approach to EI was almost equatorial and so I thought 90deg west means I should reenter at 104W... which is actually a bit too far away and IMFD and the XR2 (when lightly loaded) are extremely forgiving as I mentioned earlier in the thread. I always try to make my schedule or get in early so adjusting things like Ant and even ReA to keep the proper PeT is important to me. I've had some very hot reentries, but they've been nice and fast. My biggest hurdle is all the bits at the beginning (ie setting up properly for hyperbolic transfer, especially the math for figuring out my transfer angle ...still not 100% on the 150 degrees).

Either way, you've given me/us lots to think about so thanks again!
I will keep at it and assume at some point soon my brain will turn on and go ohhhhh...of course.:thumbup:
 

XonE32

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Speaking of the XR2 being forgiving, I didn't intentionally make this reentry this way, it was probably just another poor start from the moon. I did find it fun as there's not much room for error. Have never uploaded a .scn before, but I've stripped everything out of it so it should work for anyone who has Wideawake and an XR2...right? Unfortunately I saved at an alt of 160km ...ya might wanna switch to 0.1 time at the beginning if the mfd's aren't to your liking.
 

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dgatsoulis

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First, many thanks @ XonE32 for starting this thread.:thumbup:
Like i said before, that was a question that i wanted to ask, but didn't. (I had found a way that "semi-worked").

@ Jarmonik
Thank you for the information and also for the book! Already ordered it and i'm anxiously waiting the delivery!

@ Tommy
Wow! Your posts (as well as your manuals) are a pleasure to read. I realise that Jarmonik really wants to explain it all to us, but since English isn't his native language, it's a bit difficult. Especially with all the technical terms.
You did a great job "translating" Jarmo's thoughts!:thumbup:
I hope that soon i'll have your "grasp" of IMFD.
You may want to entitle the next manual as "IMFD for DUMMIES"! :lol:
You make it so easy that even an (almost) complete noob can understand it, Thanks!:thumbup:

@ XonE32
Very hot - very close indeed! That scenario kinda reminded me of agentgonzo's KSC-WIN in 17 minutes flight! :lol: (never managed to beat him!)

Now that you have the information (from the masters), you may find this challenge interesting:http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=11427
 

XonE32

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@ Jarmonik
Thank you for the information and also for the book! Already ordered it and i'm anxiously waiting the delivery!

@ Tommy
Wow! Your posts (as well as your manuals) are a pleasure to read. I realise that Jarmonik really wants to explain it all to us, but since English isn't his native language, it's a bit difficult. Especially with all the technical terms.
You did a great job "translating" Jarmo's thoughts!:thumbup:
I hope that soon i'll have your "grasp" of IMFD.
You may want to entitle the next manual as "IMFD for DUMMIES"! :lol:
You make it so easy that even an (almost) complete noob can understand it, Thanks!:thumbup:
Seconded...vehemently!
@ XonE32
Very hot - very close indeed! That scenario kinda reminded me of agentgonzo's KSC-WIN in 17 minutes flight! :lol: (never managed to beat him!)
Yeah, kinda fun reentry. Ha, I could never get close to Agent's Psycho-Airline's time. In fact I think I actually only made it alive a couple times.

Now that you have the information (from the masters), you may find this challenge interesting:http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=11427
Oh no, another one? I spent days trying your 9min direct ascent to (ESS in my case) and still could only get it down to 12:30min... but practice practice practice.:)
 
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