News Air Asia flight QZ8501 missing

Graham2001

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TAROM Flight 381 is one of several incidents where crews got into an argument with the auto-piloting systems, the other non-fatal incident occurred to the former East German state airline Interflug.

 
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Urwumpe

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New snippet of investigation results: The co-pilot was piloting the aircraft at that time.

The FDR data looks good, but final results will be published in a few months.
 

Eccentrus

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The story here is that there was a part of the flight computer that got awry midflight which the captain then tried to restart from the breaker switch, turns out that when this part went offline, the stall protection also went off which means when the copilot suddenly pulled the steering to gain altitude, the plane got into a stall position and hence the accident.

The procedure the captain took to restart is not recommendable by airbus and not in a proper protocol since there was a hard reset button nearby in his position while the breaker switch was behind the copilot's back.

I'll date with the link when i got home
 

garyw

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the stall protection also went off which means when the copilot suddenly pulled the steering to gain altitude, the plane got into a stall position and hence the accident.

So a slight variant on AF-447 but otherwise the same unshakable belief in Airbus stall protection. Not good.
 

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Urwumpe

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(Warning: Rather large image)

Overhead_panel_of_A320_aircraft_at_parking_stand.jpg


Here you can see the official push button indicators for resetting the flight computers on the overhead panel, on the left and the right side, in the panels labelled "FLT CTL".

Pushing each of this switches toggles the respective computer on or off, and triggers the whole standard power-on self-test, when going back online. There are only subtle differences to the hard way of removing power from the computer by breaking the circuit.
 
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ex-orbinaut

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Pushing each of this switches toggles the respective computer on or off, and triggers the whole standard power-on self-test, when going back online. There are only subtle differences to the hard way of removing power from the computer by breaking the circuit.

Actually, the differences of a circuit breaker hard reset of the FACs are not so subtle.

Doing a Push Button (those seen in your picture) reset of a FAC in flight is allowed by the flight crew in flight for one purpose only; clearing / resetting a YAW DAMPER FAULT 1 or 2. It is detailed in the computer reset table of the QRH. They are to be done on only the affected FAC, also, never both together.

Reset via the CBs is restricted to ground only, in the same table, and is for attempting to clear a WINDSHEAR DETECTION FAULT or a REACTIVE WINDSHEAR DETECTION FAULT.

If it is true that the commander "got out of his seat" to reset the FAC via CBs, then he was going for FAC 2, as FAC 1 CBs are on 49VU, the O/H panel and easily within his reach from his seat (unfortunately, your picture does not go far enough back to see them). FAC 2 CBs are on 121VU, behind the F/O.

Resetting by PB affects only the rudder channels of the FAC (rudder damper, trim, and travel limit). All flight envelope computations done by the FAC are left unaffected by this reset.

Resetting via CB, on the other hand, takes off line all flight envelope computations for that FAC, and is an extremely dangerous - not to mention prohibited - practice in flight.

Baffling; there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to try and do a CB reset of a FAC in flight.

Unless, of course, the moral of the story is;

Never say FAC OFF to your companion on the flight deck in an A320, no matter what mood you are in; he might take you quite literally.
 

Urwumpe

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Never say FAC OFF to your companion on the flight deck in an A320, no matter what mood you are in; he might take you quite literally.

:rofl:
 

Urwumpe

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Some good reason for necroposting here:

Spiegel reports in its next issue (Digital from this evening on, printed tomorrow) about an incident of a Lufthansa Airbus A321 with 109 passengers onboard, which went into a 1000 m dive after its air data sensors froze on flight LH1829 between Bilbao and Munich on November 5, 2014. Only the experience of the crew saved the day, when they managed to shut the faulty computer down quickly. The crew was unable to stop the dive by pulling up.

The reason for the dive seems to be a computer error in that situation, Airbus has already provided software patches, changed emergency procedures and maintenance orders. A preliminary report by the German agency BFU will also be published in the next days.
 

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That's a bit worrying!

Did they just shut down a computer or switch the plane to direct law? I'd be interested to read the full incident report on this one.
 

Urwumpe

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That's a bit worrying!

Did they just shut down a computer or switch the plane to direct law? I'd be interested to read the full incident report on this one.

Same here, the teaser is still a bit ambiguous.

But it does not sound like a CB was pulled somewhere, but the detailled knowledge of the captain of the aircraft about the system architecture has been mentioned.
 

C3PO

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But it does not sound like a CB was pulled somewhere, but the detailled knowledge of the captain of the aircraft about the system architecture has been mentioned.

I would hazard a guess that pulling the flight computer CB on a FBW aircraft would be slightly fatal.
 

garyw

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I would hazard a guess that pulling the flight computer CB on a FBW aircraft would be slightly fatal.

No, it won't be. It'll trip out the computers and even then the plane should go to direct law.

The airbus flight deck has a guarded switch that when pushed will terminate FBW totally and once pushed this cannot be reset except when back on the ground.
 

Urwumpe

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The airbus flight deck has a guarded switch that when pushed will terminate FBW totally and once pushed this cannot be reset except when back on the ground.

Citation needed.
 

C3PO

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The airbus flight deck has a guarded switch that when pushed will terminate FBW totally and once pushed this cannot be reset except when back on the ground.

That sounds like the dumbest piece of design since male nipples.
 

Urwumpe

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That sounds like the dumbest piece of design since male nipples.

God must be a civil engineer. Only civil engineers would build a sewage pipeline right through an amusement park.
 

ADSWNJ

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The airbus flight deck has a guarded switch that when pushed will terminate FBW totally and once pushed this cannot be reset except when back on the ground.

http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthread.php?t=51406

Worth a read. I took from this that the is no such kill switch, except in very early Airbus test planes. But there is an unofficial way to flip to Alt Law any time if the pilots wish. And like somebody said ... you can't really take the computers out of the Airbus, unless you are in the direst of manual backup modes.
 

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... pulling the flight computer CB on a FBW aircraft would be slightly fatal.

I think that may only apply to fighter planes which are inherently unstable, unflyable even, to gain the upper hand in manoeuvrability. Airliners are supposed to be stable, and want to fly - FBW stops the crew ripping the wings off or getting outside the airframe's envelope.
 

Urwumpe

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I think that may only apply to fighter planes which are inherently unstable, unflyable even, to gain the upper hand in manoeuvrability. Airliners are supposed to be stable, and want to fly - FBW stops the crew ripping the wings off or getting outside the airframe's envelope.

The problem is, that you also reset the information about the aircraft status in the FBW computers that way and enforce a reset situation, which assumes you to be on the ground and in zero motion, because in the real world, there are no perfect sensors - the computer has to calibrate the sensors and their input first. (Most likely, your car does the same on start-up, without you really noticing it - unless you remove the battery for 30 minutes and erase the EPC memory completely)

For a more or less long moment, the FBW system will be terribly confused.
 
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