Venture Station Proposal Thread

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Hello everyone,

I think now would be a good time to begin discussion on a project that Ive been planning for the last few months. After reading this PDF, I was inspired to create a space station in Orbiter, doing the same thing in real time.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/site/docs/publications/DepotBasedTransportationArchitecture2010.pdf

The advantage of siting this station at the EML2 point would be its proximity in delta-vee terms to the moon and especially to Earth C3. Estimated delta-vee to launch a mission to mars from this point would be around 1000 m/s. Thats an absolute bargain compared to the usual 3000-4000 needed if you were to eject from LEO.

In case anyone was wondering, I am planning on doing this project in a manner similar to a VSA, but there are some differences in its structure that should allow it to succeed. Once the station has been assembled & is ready to handle refuelling requirements, other Orbiter users can let me know they want to rendezvous with the station, & I will leave the latest state in their care during the launch & flight to the station, they refuel their spacecraft from whatever reserves we have, & the scenario can be passed back whenever they feel ready. Once they've done their burn to whatever destination awaits them, they can delete the Venture_Station entry from their SCN file, I can do likewise, and both missions proceed as planned.

The reason why I feel that this will work better than the standard VSA is that it has no commitment requirements from any members involved. If noone shows any interest, I'll simply use the station for my own missions, like a private VSA, but the door will always be open to refuel there.

I plan to be using IMS for Venture Station, as it should allow me a great deal of realism and flexibilty in station operations without needing any prior development to work. This should kill another one of the classic pitfalls that VSAs often fall into, since very little development will be needed. As a side note, here is a early conception of what the station will look like, using IMS RC2. Not sure why Atlantis is there though...

View attachment 11432

I will unfortunately need to lay down a few ground rules for what spacecraft we can use. I would prefer realistic or semi-realistic spacecraft only, since the whole point of the project is to simulate a near-future concept. Even in spite of that, a lot of futuristic spacecraft would be way out of the capacity of my station. An Arrow freighter might be a really cool ship to fly, but its fuel tanks can hold 800 metric tonnes of fuel. I dont expect to be able to provide that much fuel over the lifetime of the station, let alone in one fill-up. That being said, there are still a lot of options available for what can be used. My list at present would include:

-Almost anything by the Orbiter Forums Italia
-SpaceX launch vehicles & Dragon
-The Tetha/Dadaelus add-ons
-Firebird HLV
-IMS (obviously, although realistic propulsion would be preferred see scale issue above)
-Orion CEV, CST-100, any of the new things coming
-Soyuz (dont know whether it could even get there though)
-Mars DRM (this one would be perfect to demonstrate on a refuelling station)
-Kulches Space Tugs, maybe energia, although it would be a little bit improbable
-Shuttle-D (biased I know, but its somewhat realistic, just not a very good design)
-Spider Lunar Lander

Pretty much anything thats designed with an eye towards realism more than just fun. The DGIV and XRs are designed to be very realistic, but actually building one would be quite difficult in reality compared to building an HLV or a NTR.

Velcro Rockets would be my preffered choice for launch vehicles, as it allows a lot of flexibility & variety with only one download link. Multistage2 is okay as well, but a lot of packages can be large downloads. If in doubt, just ask & we can work something out

I thought I would start this thread, just to start testing the waters for interest. I wont be beginning work on this until the Iron Hill B-crew has left mercury, (a few months from now) but I figured I would put out the idea for now, and see how much interest there is in the idea.

One last thing before I go, I've been stumped on making a logo. If anyone wants to give it a shot, please do, and post it in this thread.

Thats it, and help us all

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Interesting paper. I never would have thought about the use of boiloff for stationkeeping and manuevering propulsion.
However, there's another possibility: Methane. I feel that a station holding methane, LOX, and LH2 at a minimum is required, and if you're serious, perhaps N2O4/UDMH and/or MMH as well. That way, EVERYONE can play, not just LOX/LH2. (I don't think RP-1 is a viable option outside of LEO. It's just too heavy and doesn't have enough ISP to be worth it, IMO.)

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Interesting paper. I never would have thought about the use of boiloff for stationkeeping and manuevering propulsion.
However, there's another possibility: Methane. I feel that a station holding methane, LOX, and LH2 at a minimum is required, and if you're serious, perhaps N2O4/UDMH and/or MMH as well. That way, EVERYONE can play, not just LOX/LH2. (I don't think RP-1 is a viable option outside of LEO. It's just too heavy and doesn't have enough ISP to be worth it, IMO.)

No problem, although I think I will Dll the propellant tanks, so as to model some basic boil off, and other things. Any fuel that a user wants is fine by me, but it has to be shipped to L2 & stored there.

I would also be open to end users running propellant deliveries for me, but the task is so boring that I imagine Ill probably end up doing most of it myself.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Artistic impression of how Venture Station may look when completed. (Or just an edited Orbiter screenshot )



The other feature I plan on adding to this will be the ability to explore the stations interior. Although IMS does not have any ability to include virtual cockpits, I plan on adding a Airdock module at the end of the station, used for several purposes. Firstly, it should allow me to model the interior of the station, module by module in its VC. The windows on the building blocks hab modules can then be made transparent through their textures. Secondly, this should allow me to outfit the station with a much bigger RCS system than would be possible in IMS, and I can add a few mooring points for propellant tanks. If nothing else, I should at least have the nicest docking module that side of the moon.

Final mass for first version of the station was about 240 metric tonnes :shifty:. Construction will probably take a while...

 

[HopDavid]

The advantage of siting this station at the EML2 point would be its proximity in delta-vee terms to the moon and especially to Earth C3. Estimated delta-vee to launch a mission to mars from this point would be around 1000 m/s. Thats an absolute bargain compared to the usual 3000-4000 needed if you were to eject from LEO.

I'm hoping people will use Farquhar's 9 day, 3.5 km/s path from LEO to EML2:

The path is time reversible so it'd also be possible to do a .147 burn to drop from apolune to a perilune deep in the moon's gravity well. At perilune exploit the Oberth benefit and do a .184 km/s burn that sends the ship to a perigee deep in earth's gravity well. Perigee speed would be around 3.1 km/s greater than circular orbit at that altitude. Which is around 10.8 km/s, just a hair under escape. At that speed, it only takes another .6 km/s for insertion to a Mars Hohmann.


Playing around with an orbital simulator, I found a 17 day path to LEO that takes only .147 km/s. After the 3rd perilune, see how pellet 11 is tossed to an earth grazing orbit:

I'm not sure if pellet 11's 3rd perilune is above the moon's surface though.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

I'm hoping people will use Farquhar's 9 day, 3.5 km/s path from LEO to EML2:

The path is time reversible so it'd also be possible to do a .147 burn to drop from apolune to a perilune deep in the moon's gravity well. At perilune exploit the Oberth benefit and do a .184 km/s burn that sends the ship to a perigee deep in earth's gravity well. Perigee speed would be around 3.1 km/s greater than circular orbit at that altitude. Which is around 10.8 km/s, just a hair under escape. At that speed, it only takes another .6 km/s for insertion to a Mars Hohmann.


Playing around with an orbital simulator, I found a 17 day path to LEO that takes only .147 km/s. After the 3rd perilune, see how pellet 11 is tossed to an earth grazing orbit:

I'm not sure if pellet 11's 3rd perilune is above the moon's surface though.

Thank you for all of the detailed help on this.

That first trajectory looks wild, how much does it miss the moon by? I was originally thinking of just doing an old fashioned Hohman that goes behind the moon, but that would probably be better, provided I can figure out how to actually fly it.


How much dv would it take to lower pellet 10s orbit down to LEO?

Just a thought, but is there any way to run those simulators on your site offline? I dont have regular access to the internet at home, so an applet I can run offline would be nice.

 

[HopDavid]

Thank you for all of the detailed help on this.

That first trajectory looks wild, how much does it miss the moon by? I was originally thinking of just doing an old fashioned Hohman that goes behind the moon, but that would probably be better, provided I can figure out how to actually fly it.

I believe a straight old fashioned Hohmann from LEO to EML2 would take about 4 km/s. Remember EML2 is moving faster than a ordinary orbit at that altitude, so even more delta V is needed to circularize at apogee.

Farquhar's use of a lunar gravity assist seems to save about .5 km/s -- 3.5 km/s to get from LEO to EML2.

I've been told with multiple gravity assists, it's possible to park at EML2 with 3.1 km/s but I haven't been able to verify this on my own.

How much dv would it take to lower pellet 10s orbit down to LEO?

I imagine a small burn at perilune. I wish I knew how to get the pellet velocities at perilune and then do another burn. But all I can do is set the inititial position and velocity vectors.

I went back and did the same sim with smaller time increments for greater accuracy. Pellet 11's nice earth grazing ellipse went away .

Just a thought, but is there any way to run those simulators on your site offline? I dont have regular access to the internet at home, so an applet I can run offline would be nice.

I believe your computer needs to be an Apache server to run php documents from your own hard drive.

You could try downloading these 3 documents to the same folder:

http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/emlShotGun.txt
http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/orb.jar
http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/moon_vectors.txt

After you've downloaded emlShotGun.txt, change the txt suffix to php to make it emlShotGun.php.

Hope that works.

 

[TMac3000]

I'd like to get in on this project

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

I'd like to get in on this project

Wont you be busy by the time I launch this project? Real Time Incorporated will always be welcome at Venture station though :thumbup:

I dont know if I can realistically provide any refuelling for the Drake though. My first few orders are probably going to have to be for space probes before I can provide enough fuel for a manned mission.

Any ideas on how best to do the assembly? Im unsure what order I should bring parts online in.

 

[TMac3000]

Maybe a corporate partnership of some sort

Any ideas on how best to do the assembly? Im unsure what order I should bring parts online in.

You need your core systems up and running first. Control, life support, attitude system. After those, you have the foundation you need for adding habitat and science modules.

As an utterly shameless, wanton Themis fanboy, I'd recommend that fabulous rocket, plus a Dragonfly (are you still having CTD issues with that?) for putting the modules together

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Be careful: Current beta of Themis-A has issues lofting 20 tons to a stable orbit, let alone making the kind of burns needed for even the lowest-energy runs to the Moon. That said, a 10 ton module should be able to make the run, and if you use a kick stage like a Fregat (Velcro, perhaps), you could probably make it with 15 tons. I'll take a swing at that soon.
Otherwise, you'll need a tug of some sort to make the transfer.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Maybe a corporate partnership of some sort

You need your core systems up and running first. Control, life support, attitude system. After those, you have the foundation you need for adding habitat and science modules.

As an utterly shameless, wanton Themis fanboy, I'd recommend that fabulous rocket, plus a Dragonfly (are you still having CTD issues with that?) for putting the modules together

Well, I knew I would be bringing the core stuff online first, but theres so much of it (& so heavy) that I dont know where to start.

I think I'll use a RMS arm to assemble actually

Be careful: Current beta of Themis-A has issues lofting 20 tons to a stable orbit, let alone making the kind of burns needed for even the lowest-energy runs to the Moon. That said, a 10 ton module should be able to make the run, and if you use a kick stage like a Fregat (Velcro, perhaps), you could probably make it with 15 tons. I'll take a swing at that soon.
Otherwise, you'll need a tug of some sort to make the transfer.

Well I plan on using velcro rockets as my primary launch system, but 15 tonnes is nothing to sneeze at. Im looking forward to the Themis-A, hopefully it gets released soon.

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Well I plan on using velcro rockets as my primary launch system, but 15 tonnes is nothing to sneeze at. Im looking forward to the Themis-A, hopefully it gets released soon.

It's close to release status now. Couple more bugs to gas and some more options to add, and then it would be ready to go.
The other option I just thought of is to use kulch's Energia. Grand total of 100 tons to near-LEO, including the orbital insertion stage. THAT's nothing to sneeze at: It'll stomp you flat! :lol: I suspect that the Smerch tug (seperate addon, BTW) has the ooomph to get even the biggest IMS modules to the Moon, although it's not known for precise manuevers or burns: it only has 7 (? don't quote me on that) engine starts, and no linear thrusters, so you need to be REALLY careful with your burns. Once you're out of starts, it's just space junk...

 

[dgatsoulis]

Here is my attempt to recreate Farquhar's 3 burns/9 day trajectory to EML2 with IMFD. 1st burn ΔV= 3142.5 m/s, Earth-Moon Flight time = 140 hours, Lunar PeA = 111.1 km.

Here is the scenario with the IMFD Delta Velocity program, ready for the first burn:

BEGIN_DESC
Contains the latest simulation state.
END_DESC

BEGIN_ENVIRONMENT
  System Sol
  Date MJD 56357.6451325481
END_ENVIRONMENT

BEGIN_FOCUS
  Ship GL-01
END_FOCUS

BEGIN_CAMERA
  TARGET GL-01
  MODE Cockpit
  FOV 50.00
END_CAMERA

BEGIN_HUD
  TYPE Surface
END_HUD

BEGIN_MFD Left
  TYPE User
  MODE Interplanetary
  Scenario Old2
  MapMFD V5
  Reference moon
  Target moon
  Center moon
  Data 0 1 9.158942568359129e-006 0 1 1 0 3 1 0 0 0
  MassLimit 1e+020
  CMode 0
  Config 1 1 1 1 0 0
  ExtMode 2
  Periapis Moon
  END 
  CorMFD V4
  Reference Earth
  Target Ecliptic
  Source GL-01
  ActiveProg 5 5
  DataA 0 3 2 0 0 0
  DataB 1 1 56357.64941934504 0 0 0 0 0 0
  DVProg 3142.5 0 -2.400000000000001 1
  AdvConf 0 0 0 0 0
  Guidance 0
  END 
  EjectMFD V5
  Reference Auto
  Data 0 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 10
  Guidance 0
  END 
  BaseAprMFD V2
  Reference Auto
  Target none
  Source none
  DataA 0 0 120000 0.0261799 0.366519 1 1 43386.44388339043 43386.44388339043 0
  DataB 0 3 0 1 0 1
  END 
  SlingMFD V4
  Reference Auto
  Source none
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 0
  END 
  LaunchMFD V4
  Target None
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 0
  END 
  CF1_DataA 0 0
  CF1_DataB 0 10 120000 2 20 150000
  CF1_SecTgt 
  mfdShare -1
  mfdProgram 2
END_MFD

BEGIN_MFD Right
  TYPE User
  MODE Interplanetary
  Scenario Old2
  MapMFD V5
  Reference moon
  Target moon
  Center moon
  Data 0 1 9.158942568359129e-006 0 1 1 0 3 1 0 0 0
  MassLimit 1e+020
  CMode 0
  Config 1 1 1 1 0 0
  ExtMode 2
  Periapis Moon
  END 
  CorMFD V4
  Reference Earth
  Target Ecliptic
  Source GL-01
  ActiveProg 5 5
  DataA 0 3 2 0 0 0
  DataB 1 1 56357.64941934504 0 0 0 0 0 0
  DVProg 3142.5 0 -2.400000000000001 1
  AdvConf 0 0 0 0 0
  Guidance 0
  END 
  EjectMFD V5
  Reference Auto
  Data 0 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 10
  Guidance 0
  END 
  BaseAprMFD V2
  Reference Auto
  Target none
  Source none
  DataA 0 0 120000 0.0261799 0.366519 1 1 43386.44388339043 43386.44388339043 0
  DataB 0 3 0 1 0 1
  END 
  SlingMFD V4
  Reference Auto
  Source none
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 0
  END 
  LaunchMFD V4
  Target None
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 0
  END 
  CF1_DataA 0 0
  CF1_DataB 0 10 120000 2 20 150000
  CF1_SecTgt 
  mfdShare 0
  mfdProgram 4
END_MFD

BEGIN_SHIPS
GL-01:DeltaGlider
  STATUS Orbiting Earth
  RPOS -5636323.48 -570555.32 3299835.56
  RVEL -3944.776 127.710 -6725.190
  AROT 6.44 -12.12 -11.80
  VROT 0.01 0.08 -0.01
  RCSMODE 2
  AFCMODE 7
  PRPLEVEL 0:0.583469 1:0.953540
  NAVFREQ 402 94 0 0
  XPDR 0
  AAP 0:0 0:0 0:0
END
END_SHIPS

BEGIN_ExtMFD
END

Which base on Earth do you plan to use for launches?

 

[MaverickSawyer]

I would reccomend CSSC for Themis and Energia, and Wideawake for anything else.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Here is my attempt to recreate Farquhar's 3 burns/9 day trajectory to EML2 with IMFD. 1st burn ΔV= 3142.5 m/s, Earth-Moon Flight time = 140 hours, Lunar PeA = 111.1 km.

Here is the scenario with the IMFD Delta Velocity program, ready for the first burn:

BEGIN_DESC
Contains the latest simulation state.
END_DESC

BEGIN_ENVIRONMENT
  System Sol
  Date MJD 56357.6451325481
END_ENVIRONMENT

BEGIN_FOCUS
  Ship GL-01
END_FOCUS

BEGIN_CAMERA
  TARGET GL-01
  MODE Cockpit
  FOV 50.00
END_CAMERA

BEGIN_HUD
  TYPE Surface
END_HUD

BEGIN_MFD Left
  TYPE User
  MODE Interplanetary
  Scenario Old2
  MapMFD V5
  Reference moon
  Target moon
  Center moon
  Data 0 1 9.158942568359129e-006 0 1 1 0 3 1 0 0 0
  MassLimit 1e+020
  CMode 0
  Config 1 1 1 1 0 0
  ExtMode 2
  Periapis Moon
  END 
  CorMFD V4
  Reference Earth
  Target Ecliptic
  Source GL-01
  ActiveProg 5 5
  DataA 0 3 2 0 0 0
  DataB 1 1 56357.64941934504 0 0 0 0 0 0
  DVProg 3142.5 0 -2.400000000000001 1
  AdvConf 0 0 0 0 0
  Guidance 0
  END 
  EjectMFD V5
  Reference Auto
  Data 0 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 10
  Guidance 0
  END 
  BaseAprMFD V2
  Reference Auto
  Target none
  Source none
  DataA 0 0 120000 0.0261799 0.366519 1 1 43386.44388339043 43386.44388339043 0
  DataB 0 3 0 1 0 1
  END 
  SlingMFD V4
  Reference Auto
  Source none
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 0
  END 
  LaunchMFD V4
  Target None
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 0
  END 
  CF1_DataA 0 0
  CF1_DataB 0 10 120000 2 20 150000
  CF1_SecTgt 
  mfdShare -1
  mfdProgram 2
END_MFD

BEGIN_MFD Right
  TYPE User
  MODE Interplanetary
  Scenario Old2
  MapMFD V5
  Reference moon
  Target moon
  Center moon
  Data 0 1 9.158942568359129e-006 0 1 1 0 3 1 0 0 0
  MassLimit 1e+020
  CMode 0
  Config 1 1 1 1 0 0
  ExtMode 2
  Periapis Moon
  END 
  CorMFD V4
  Reference Earth
  Target Ecliptic
  Source GL-01
  ActiveProg 5 5
  DataA 0 3 2 0 0 0
  DataB 1 1 56357.64941934504 0 0 0 0 0 0
  DVProg 3142.5 0 -2.400000000000001 1
  AdvConf 0 0 0 0 0
  Guidance 0
  END 
  EjectMFD V5
  Reference Auto
  Data 0 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 10
  Guidance 0
  END 
  BaseAprMFD V2
  Reference Auto
  Target none
  Source none
  DataA 0 0 120000 0.0261799 0.366519 1 1 43386.44388339043 43386.44388339043 0
  DataB 0 3 0 1 0 1
  END 
  SlingMFD V4
  Reference Auto
  Source none
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 43386.44388339043 0
  END 
  LaunchMFD V4
  Target None
  Data 0 1 1 3 0 1 0
  END 
  CF1_DataA 0 0
  CF1_DataB 0 10 120000 2 20 150000
  CF1_SecTgt 
  mfdShare 0
  mfdProgram 4
END_MFD

BEGIN_SHIPS
GL-01:DeltaGlider
  STATUS Orbiting Earth
  RPOS -5636323.48 -570555.32 3299835.56
  RVEL -3944.776 127.710 -6725.190
  AROT 6.44 -12.12 -11.80
  VROT 0.01 0.08 -0.01
  RCSMODE 2
  AFCMODE 7
  PRPLEVEL 0:0.583469 1:0.953540
  NAVFREQ 402 94 0 0
  XPDR 0
  AAP 0:0 0:0 0:0
END
END_SHIPS

BEGIN_ExtMFD
END

Which base on Earth do you plan to use for launches?

Impressive stuff, although I only use TransX at the moment. Is there a specific feature in IMFD that helped you find that route?

I would reccomend CSSC for Themis and Energia, and Wideawake for anything else.

Energia out of CSSC?

I actually don't really want to use Energia at the moment, since it seems like cheating to use a HLV vehicle that's been defunct for so long. I have heard rumors of its resurrection though...

I figure CSSC, Wideawake, KSC, AVSI, maybe Kourou. From what I understand, the additional advantage in using L2 as a rendezvous point is that launches can be sent there from almost any point on the globe.

 

[MaverickSawyer]

CSSC's big pad has an integrated Energia platform. Switch your focus to it, then hit "S" three times. Also, set your pad offset to 10 meters, and bam, you're ready for launch.
As for the "cheating" aspect: It's still an outstanding lifter. If you do need to loft something bulky or heavy, and it's later in the launch schedule, I can see it being reasoned as being "resurrected".

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

CSSC's big pad has an integrated Energia platform. Switch your focus to it, then hit "S" three times. Also, set your pad offset to 10 meters, and bam, you're ready for launch.
As for the "cheating" aspect: It's still an outstanding lifter. If you do need to loft something bulky or heavy, and it's later in the launch schedule, I can see it being reasoned as being "resurrected".

I know, but part of the purpose behind the project is to show its feasibility somewhat, although enjoyment is the ultimate goal. If I can use cheaper, more readily available rockets like the Deltas, Titans, & Protons, I can still accomplish the job easily enough.

But if the Russians do ever bring back Energia, Ill be the first one to the launch pad

 

[dgatsoulis]

Impressive stuff, although I only use TransX at the moment. Is there a specific feature in IMFD that helped you find that route?

The pic HopDavid posted had all the info: parking orbit alt, TOF, ΔV and lunar PeA.

I linked two IMFDs and then used the Delta Velocity program on one side and the Map program on the other. That combination provides the most accurate results in Orbiter, in terms of making a burn and knowing where you'll end up. You still need some correction but for Earth-Moon journeys it is less than 5 m/s.

I figure CSSC, Wideawake, KSC, AVSI, maybe Kourou. From what I understand, the additional advantage in using L2 as a rendezvous point is that launches can be sent there from almost any point on the globe.

I am not so sure about KSC. I'd recommend any site that you can launch directly into a coplanar to the Moon orbit. Not that you can't reach the L2 from a KSC launch, but it will add some complexity to the trajectory.

Things will be easier once you get the first module in place. You will have something to target.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

The pic HopDavid posted had all the info: parking orbit alt, TOF, ΔV and lunar PeA.

Whats TOF?

Things will be easier once you get the first module in place. You will have something to target.

Thats what Im developing the Phoenix Capsule for. Im going to tow it to lunar orbit with a Shuttle-DB, then boost it up to L2 with a nearside burn. The phoenix can deploy a marker buoy or something similar to act as my target.

If only I could get the parachutes to work