Tropical Storm Edouard

[Kyle]

Edouard is now up to 60 MPH, Recon coming says that its possibly 70 MPH TS or a 75 MPH
Hurricane.


-----Posted Added-----


65 MPH now.

 

[Urwumpe]

Edouard is now up to 60 MPH, Recon coming says that its possibly 70 MPH TS or a 75 MPH
Hurricane.


-----Posted Added-----


65 MPH now.

Last recon I had was still predicting a tropical storm. But remember: The more hot air you add to it here, the more energy it gets.

 

[GregBurch]

So far, on the far west side of Houston, this storm's had a lot more "hot air" than anything else. No wind yet and very little rain ...

 

[Tex]

Well, seems the worst has passed us. There's still some heavy rain bands moving in from offshore so we're not out of the woods yet. The eye passed closer than I thought from the track last night before bed and came in a bit earlier than predicted. We had some wind and a lot of rain so far, but nothing I haven't seen before.

Just surfing the net in a tropical storm.

 

[GregBurch]

Well, seems the worst has passed us. There's still some heavy rain bands moving in from offshore so we're not out of the woods yet. The eye passed closer than I thought from the track last night before bed and came in a bit earlier than predicted. We had some wind and a lot of rain so far, but nothing I haven't seen before.

Just surfing the net in a tropical storm.

Total non-event on the west side of town. We've gotten more rain in a normal summer thunderstorm period and we had less wind than you encounter at your average chili festival.

My opinion exactly. OTOH, we're civilized Texans. The natives here seem to like it just fine. Graft and corruption are so embedded in the culture here that everybody takes it for granted and knows how to deal with it. However, it shocks the conscience of anybody from the real world, no matter how long you've been exiled here

Yeah, what totally eats me up is the way Katrina was "all Bush's fault" when a huge amount of the problem was New Orleans' specifically and Louisiana's in general utterly dysfunctional government and political culture of graft and corruption.

But that "didn't fit the narrative" so the truth about this was buried on the back page, if it saw the light of day at all. It's funny the way NPR keeps the Katrina story going and going and going (clearly an editorial political decision), but you NEVER hear about the terrible local political culture as being one of the root causes of the problems.

I hope your family came through Katrina OK. Nawlins gets all the media attention, but it got off easy, really. Plaquemine and St. Bernard parishes took the real hit, and then the Biloxi area. But you don't hear them whining about it still today, they didn't shoot at rescue helicopters at the time, and their refugees didn't start new crime waves everywhere they went. And meanwhile, nobody says a peep about the devastation caused by Rita.

No one got hurt, but the parish was pretty well scraped clean, and what wasn't rotted in the aftermath. Some of the buildings had been standing for almost 300 years (this is the little colony of "Islenos" from which my mother's people come), but were basically ruined by Katrina.

 

[Urwumpe]

I think if Bush had only a single bit of political instinct, the real people to be blamed would have been looking bad - but his protection of his FEMA buddy made him the scapegoat for many years of ignoring potential problems.

 

[GregBurch]

I think if Bush had only a single bit of political instinct, the real people to be blamed would have been looking bad - but his protection of his FEMA buddy made him the scapegoat for many years of ignoring potential problems.

That one fact, while true, simply doesn't explain how the mainstream news media utterly, utterly ignored the underlying rot of Louisiana politics, and the effect that had on the reaction to Katrina.

By the time Katrina happened, Bush simply could not get his message out.

If you want to see a detailed description of how this systematic twisting of the news worked during this time, read Doug Feith's book, War and Decision. I'm about 2/3 of the way through it right now, and the number of outright lies that were propagated by the mainstream media to further their campaign of demonization of the Bush administration is astonishing. The material Feith presents in his book is meticulously documented, and absolutely devastating to any idea that the media were "objectively" covering the Bush administration. They were opposed to everything Bush tried to do, and worked against him constantly.

 

[Urwumpe]

By the time Katrina happened, Bush simply could not get his message out.

What was his message?

I think blaming the media is not the best way to understand what happened. Of course, most damage which happened was caused by decisions in the past. But after the damage happened, the FEMA response was abysmal bad. And people and especially media have a short term memory. Nobody wants to read about how bad the levees had been because of bad maintenance in the past 20 years. People had more the questions why help did not reach them.

In the last major flooding of Germany, you had the discussion about bad settlement patterns and water management AFTER you saw the images of soldiers, disaster relief teams and (other) volunteers working together to reduce the potential damage. TV was not able to find somebody complaining about the help being not enough without having at least one group of helpers in the image.

 

[GregBurch]

What was his message?

I think blaming the media is not the best way to understand what happened. Of course, most damage which happened was caused by decisions in the past. But after the damage happened, the FEMA response was abysmal bad. And people and especially media have a short term memory. Nobody wants to read about how bad the levees had been because of bad maintenance in the past 20 years. People had more the questions why help did not reach them.

In the last major flooding of Germany, you had the discussion about bad settlement patterns and water management AFTER you saw the images of soldiers, disaster relief teams and (other) volunteers working together to reduce the potential damage. TV was not able to find somebody complaining about the help being not enough without having at least one group of helpers in the image.

First, there's no question that FEMA's response was poor. But what almost all non-Americans -- and most Americans, it now seems -- didn't and still don't understand is that under the US system of government, the states are supposed to be first responders to non-military public emergencies. FEMA had been set up from its inception to support state and local efforts. Basically, they were designed to provide national-scale assistance to state and local authorities; the specific "who, what, when, how" direction was supposed to come from the state and local authorities, and FEMA was supposed to actually do what the local folks asked for.

Notice that just a few miles away from all the misery in New Orleans, things went a lot smoother in Mississippi. This was because, as seriously below-average as Mississippi's state government is, it was still orders of magnitude more competent that Louisiana's.

Beyond this, just a few weeks later, Texas got smacked by Rita. Our biggest city -- and the one closest to Rita's impact -- was still dealing with the completely ad hoc, voluntary and local effort -- massive effort -- we put into aiding Katrina refugees. Guess what? Despite evacuating 1/4 of the population of Houston, we did fine.

The difference? Louisiana is a corrupt, backward third world country, and always has been.

Question: How much of any of this did you hear about in the German media?

 

[Urwumpe]

First, there's no question that FEMA's response was poor. But what almost all non-Americans -- and most Americans, it now seems -- didn't and still don't understand is that under the US system of government, the states are supposed to be first responders to non-military public emergencies. FEMA had been set up from its inception to support state and local efforts. Basically, they were designed to provide national-scale assistance to state and local authorities; the specific "who, what, when, how" direction was supposed to come from the state and local authorities, and FEMA was supposed to actually do what the local folks asked for.

If I remember correctly, the disaster response got centralized by the US federal government in the wake of 911. What FEMA was supposed to do before and around Katherina was not the same at least, but I would have to look things up again to tell the implications.

The difference? Louisiana is a corrupt, backward third world country, and always has been.

And New Orleans below the average water level of the ocean even without a hurricane surge. you can't compare the damage of a hurricane to two different geographic entities. The storm which could flood hamburg, would not affect Wilhelmshaven like that.

Question: How much of any of this did you hear about in the German media?

Quite a lot of it, most stuff you was seeing in US media was also appearing in German media. Sometimes even only with German dubbing...

The only US media you will rarely see in German TV (except in the joke section) is Foxnews... in most bigger US events, you have German stations cooperating with the other major US stations and buy their material.

 

[GregBurch]

If I remember correctly, the disaster response got centralized by the US federal government in the wake of 911. What FEMA was supposed to do before and around Katherina was not the same at least, but I would have to look things up again to tell the implications.

It's true that there was a general movement to centralization of disaster response. But this doesn't explain Louisiana's failings: It's not as if they HAD been prepared, then, let their preparations go because they thought FEMA was taking over. They were NEVER prepared.

More importantly, they simply have almost no competent people in government because of the corruption endemic in their political culture. So, even setting aside the issue of plans and preparation, the people who had to respond were hacks.

And New Orleans below the average water level of the ocean even without a hurricane surge. you can't compare the damage of a hurricane to two different geographic entities. The storm which could flood hamburg, would not affect Wilhelmshaven like that.

I'm not comparing DAMAGE, I'm comparing disaster response. For instance, the "evacuation" of New Orleans was an organizational nightmare, not because of the impact of the hurricane, but because the Louisiana government is a joke, and "civil society" in Louisiana consists of figuring out who gets to order their drink next.

Quite a lot of it, most stuff you was seeing in US media was also appearing in German media. Sometimes even only with German dubbing...

The only US media you will rarely see in German TV (except in the joke section) is Foxnews... in most bigger US events, you have German stations cooperating with the other major US stations and buy their material.

It was explained that cities and states are the first line of response and that Lousiana's and New Orleans' government screwed up? Really? You could hear that behind the wailing of "it's all Bush's fault"? Really?

 

[Quick_Nick]

Well, this was pretty mild. We only got a little bit of rain last night. I didn't see or hear any lightning at all. Wind couldn't have been very bad either. We've been in the very large 'eye' for quite some time now, and it looks like the storms are going to just rotate around us so we probably won't be getting much more rain. The area was already declared a disaster zone ahead of time, so where's my disaster?! :lol:
Also, is there any news on areas that got hit harder or areas at/below sea level?

 

[Urwumpe]

It was explained that cities and states are the first line of response and that Lousiana's and New Orleans' government screwed up? Really? You could hear that behind the wailing of "it's all Bush's fault"? Really?

It began with "It is FEMAs fault". When people called for a change in strategy, and Bush directly protected FEMA, it became "his fault".

Simple truth of politics.

Of course the local government was not at all innocent. Ignoring all warnings and evacuate only hours before landfall is stupid at best. But the levee system was a federal project. I think the pumps which keep New Orleans water free also belong to federal infrastructure.

 

[GregBurch]

It began with "It is FEMAs fault". When people called for a change in strategy, and Bush directly protected FEMA, it became "his fault".

Simple truth of politics.

Of course the local government was not at all innocent. Ignoring all warnings and evacuate only hours before landfall is stupid at best. But the levee system was a federal project. I think the pumps which keep New Orleans water free also belong to federal infrastructure.

I'm really trying to find out a fact here -- was it reported in Germany that the long-established disaster response protocol in the US was for the state and local governments to take the leading role?

 

[Urwumpe]

I'm really trying to find out a fact here -- was it reported in Germany that the long-established disaster response protocol in the US was for the state and local governments to take the leading role?

No, it was assumed by most people, including myself, that the system inside the USA was practically the same as in Germany, with the local governments to request help in small disasters, but organize in a bigger regional task force for bigger catastrophes.

Details about FEMAs role only appeared when the criticism on Brown grew, after the first 3 days.

If I read things correctly, the response was organized exactly that way - a Task force for relief was established even before landfall. But the relief took very long to get started, and failed to reach even bigger concentrations of victims for a long while. So, there was a problem with the distribution of the resources. And if I remember correctly, the resources had been very active in the suburbs of New Orleans and other higher ground, and avoided even investigating the damage in central New Orleans for about 12 hours.

"FEMA logistics and contracting systems did not support a targeted, massive, and sustained provision of commodities."

 

[GregBurch]

No, it was assumed by most people, including myself, that the system inside the USA was practically the same as in Germany, with the local governments to request help in small disasters, but organize in a bigger regional task force for bigger catastrophes.

Details about FEMAs role only appeared when the criticism on Brown grew, after the first 3 days.

If I read things correctly, the response was organized exactly that way - a Task force for relief was established even before landfall. But the relief took very long to get started, and failed to reach even bigger concentrations of victims for a long while. So, there was a problem with the distribution of the resources. And if I remember correctly, the resources had been very active in the suburbs of New Orleans and other higher ground, and avoided even investigating the damage in central New Orleans for about 12 hours.

"FEMA logistics and contracting systems did not support a targeted, massive, and sustained provision of commodities."

I concede that FEMA didn't do a good job, and that that was especially deplorable under the circumstances of having come 4 years after 911. Bush's biggest failing has been his unwillingness to get involved in detailed management, and his second biggest failing has been the uneven competence of his appointees. These two factors came together in the Katrina/FEMA debacle.

However, I KNOW in detail from long personal experience the difference in the fine-grained "texture" of the political and governmental systems in the southern states. I honestly think you can't imagine how corrupt and incompetent Louisiana's government is at all levels, and the sharp contrast this stands in to the states around it. Until Katrina, it was a regional joke; Katrina made it a tragedy.

Bush's most honest political defense would have been to say "Yes, FEMA screwed up. But we were counting on state officials to act as the conduit of information and planning for detailed implementation of disaster relief. They utterly failed at this crucial task, and it took us a couple of days to fill the gap of local coordination. As a former governor of a neighboring state, I knew Louisiana was screwed up, I just didn't realize it was THAT screwed up!" Of course, by the time of Katrina, he couldn't say ANYTHING through the fog of hatred for him that the media establishment had put in place. If he'd been honest and said something like this, can you imagine what the reaction would have been?

 

[Urwumpe]

All local politicians are pretty corrupt, you should see things in Germany, where the connections between local politicians and industry are pretty visible and generally tolerated by the society.

Still, local corruption is no excuse for a regional task force failing. Also, most local politicians had no city left to be corrupt in after Katrina. Even without professional input from the local politicians, the machine should be able to work - actually, the politicians should have the wisdom to improve the morals of the victims, instead of interfering in the business of professionals. But where had the professionals been during Katrina? FEMA did not have them.

I can't imagine Bush saying something so stupid (And that is a compliment for Bush), but I could imagine him handle the problem internally faster without exposing Brown so much. More important is, that the problems in the task force get addressed. If Brown would have been promoted away after Katrina, nobody would have complained. Especially not if the task force was waking up from the hibernation after the problem became noticeable.

 

[Bullethead]

I've lived in Louisiana since 1999, although I was born lived most of my life in Texas. My family's been in Louisiana since Spain owned this part of it, however, which is why I'm here now.

During Katrina, here's what happened:

As Greg says, FEMA is a SUPPLEMENT to local and state emergency response, even in the post-9/11 world. I say this as a former firefighter deeply involved in Louisiana local emergency response plans betwen 9/11 and Katrina. Everybody in a position of power in Louisiana (and every other state) knows this, because it's part of their job. The main thing in Louisiana is that the state and New Orleans politicians didn't care, because they were too invested in being the unfailing light of the ignorant masses. IOW, they didn't think they could survive being seen as unable to handle any situation, no matter how many people died along the way. That's the short answer. To justify it, I offer this:

The mayor of New Orleans was primarily responsible for the human suffering there, because he refused to order an evactuation, which it was his call to do. When pressed to do so, he said it was impossible due to lack of transportation. This is flat BS, because the need of an evacuation has been evident since Christ was a corporal (New Orleans being essentially on the coast and below sea level), and the means was at hand. Perhaps you don't remember seeing on TV all the thousands school buses flooded out, that weren't used to evacuate the people as was in the existing plan. Despite all this, the mayor got re-elected after Katrina, which proves he was correct in his judgment of his constituents.

The Louisiana governor, meanwhile, had also refused to tell the mayor to evacuate. Moreover, she had state police stop all federal response units (FEMA, and the national guard, extra police, EMS, and fire units from other states) at the state line. She was within her rights as a state governor to do this, but why? Because she wanted to give the impression that her government could handle it all by itself. This despite the fact that she hadn't mobilized anything to speak of and what she had mobilized was completely overwhelmed. Thus, much of the overall human suffering can be laid at her door, too.

Eventually, even these 2 idiots had to admit that things were way out of their league so they let in help. However, they were by this point committed to spreading the idea that nothing was their fault. So now, having created the tragedy by the own acts and omissions, they began trumpeting how bad things were, how slow help was in getting to them, and how none of it was their fault. And the US media, which HATES Bush, picked that up and ran with it. The Euro media doesn't like Bush any more than the US media, so this BS of incompetent, corrupt Louisiana politicians got spread around the world.

Note, however, that news about Katrina's devastation only focuses on New Orleans. Seriously, New Orleans came out pretty good. Sure, it got flooded, but most of it was still standing and just needed cleaning up. Plaquemines Parish, St. Bernard Parish, and the whole Mississippi Gulf Coast got obliterated. No brick touching another, basically. But the people there mostly got evacuated in a timely manner, and then they came back and rebuilt without whining about it very much.

For them as don't know, New Orleans is pretty much the most dangerous city in the world prior to Katrina. It might not show up as such on the statistics, but that's because only like 30% of the murders ever got reported as such, thanks to corruption. When the storm hit, most of the cops there abandoned their posts and most of those that didn't joined in with the looters. It's even worse today. Did you all know, for example, that the National Guard is STILL patrolling the city streets to keep order? They still can't get enough honest cops there to do the job. That's due to corruption and its impact on hiring practices. And these days the Guard is there at the orders of the new state governor.

Overshadowed by all this is that Rita hit a couple of weeks later. After that, you could drive on I-10 from Beaumont to Mobile and see nothing but devastation. Those buildings still standing all had blue plastic tarps covering holes in the roofs. Rita obliterated Cameron, Louisiana, and its surroundings, and did major damage to several large cities. But you never heard of it because the media was buying into the slow death of New Orleans as spun by the corrupt Louisiana politicians.

I was a trucker at the time. I drove numerous loads of relief supplies into the whole area of both Katrina and Rita, right after they happened. By far the worst devatstation was in Plaquemine Parish and the Biloxi area of Mississippi, but everything went smoothly there. New Orleans, however, once the water drained away, was better off than Lake Charles. Yet in New Orleans I got shot at and and nearly highjacked, just like the people there shot at rescue helicopters and were having large-scale firefights with the troops who had been let in there by then.

Bottom line: The whole spin about the suffering in New Orleans being extreme and all FEMA/Bush's fault is a complete lie. It was all the fault of the state and local politicians nominally responsible for the safety of those people. But if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth. Didn't Goebels or Goering or Stalin say that once?