Project The "Small Orbital Craft" Project

[Andy44]

That sounds crazy. Have you ever stood next to a Mercury capsule? They were lucky they could fit a lab rat in there, let alone a man. It's tiny.

 

[Lunar_Lander]

That idea sounds great! Remembers me of a story Duke Gildenberg told which happened back in the Manhigh days: After the Manhigh II flight, somebody came up with the idea to put the Manhigh capsule onto a Redstone, fit it with heat shield and parachute and make sub-orbital hop ASAP with that.

I know that you are working on the basics right now, but: Will you later add internal systems and so on?

If you like I can give you some Manhigh info via PN.

Solid-rockets are feasible, of course. The Japanese Lambda and My for instance were all solid-fueled. The Lambda could only carry 50 pounds to LEO though. But a My-V can carry 3800 lbs ito LEO.
Addtionally these rockets are fired at an angle from a special "crane" which makes attitude control easier. Maybe also an idea for your rocket?

 

[willy88]

That sounds crazy. Have you ever stood next to a Mercury capsule? They were lucky they could fit a lab rat in there, let alone a man. It's tiny.

Here's a diagram of the Mercury capsule:

 

[James.Denholm]

Will this be UMMU compatible? You could have a sort of a non-dock hatch thingis... Anywhat.

Sounds novel. Very novel. Would I be able to fit a novel in there with me?

Just remember, if there is no parachute, and I assume that this things not going to have wings, that's going to be a very, very hard landing. Unless you use UMMU, and that means the pilot could bail out and parachute down (the UMMUs have parachutes, for those who don't know), Vostok 1 style.

 

[Cobalt]

That idea sounds great! Remembers me of a story Duke Gildenberg told which happened back in the Manhigh days: After the Manhigh II flight, somebody came up with the idea to put the Manhigh capsule onto a Redstone, fit it with heat shield and parachute and make sub-orbital hop ASAP with that.

I know that you are working on the basics right now, but: Will you later add internal systems and so on?

If you like I can give you some Manhigh info via PN.

Solid-rockets are feasible, of course. The Japanese Lambda and My for instance were all solid-fueled. The Lambda could only carry 50 pounds to LEO though. But a My-V can carry 3800 lbs ito LEO.
Addtionally these rockets are fired at an angle from a special "crane" which makes attitude control easier. Maybe also an idea for your rocket?
(snip image)

I'm not sure how many internal systems this thing could have. At the size it is now, it would make life support a bit difficult. Even if you used life support attached to whatever suit you're using, that severely limits the time you'd reasonably be able to be up. Ummu reserves are what, 2:05 at most? This is why I'm for scaling up the design just to make things a bit more logistically possible, while keeping it smaller than most other craft.

Here's a diagram of the Mercury capsule:
(Snip Image)

Yeah, that's the best comparison I could find to this idea.

Will this be UMMU compatible? You could have a sort of a non-dock hatch thingis... Anywhat.

Sounds novel. Very novel. Would I be able to fit a novel in there with me?

Just remember, if there is no parachute, and I assume that this things not going to have wings, that's going to be a very, very hard landing. Unless you use UMMU, and that means the pilot could bail out and parachute down (the UMMUs have parachutes, for those who don't know), Vostok 1 style.

I like the idea of making it UMMU compatible. Novel, I'm not so sure. Pamphlet, maybe. And that's not a terrible idea, actually. You could bail over land to come down nice and easy.

I don't think the SM could be solid fueled, since you can't throttle up or down, if I recall correctly.

 

[Dman1410]

For the name i had another idea which had sparrow in it but i thought Sparrow hawk sounded catchy.
But anyway here is the other name

ThunderSparrow

actually instead of that name, since its supposed to be small how about a normal name the

HummingBird



-----Posted Added-----

Just remember, if there is no parachute, and I assume that this things not going to have wings, that's going to be a very, very hard landing. Unless you use UMMU, and that means the pilot could bail out and parachute down (the UMMUs have parachutes, for those who don't know), Vostok 1 style.

i heard of this before but not sure where cant remember...
anyway for landing how about an air inflated cushion that deployed from the bottom of the capsule, it would probably work on water.
it might work on land but it would have to have valves on the sides to let the air out as it hits the ground otherwise it would explode under the pressure and weight of the capsule as it hit the ground.

 

[Eagle]

i heard of this before but not sure where cant remember...
anyway for landing how about an air inflated cushion that deployed from the bottom of the capsule, it would probably work on water.
it might work on land but it would have to have valves on the sides to let the air out as it hits the ground otherwise it would explode under the pressure and weight of the capsule as it hit the ground.

Uh, that's not going to work without some kind of parachute. Imagine those giant gym balls. If you fall or jump down a few feet the ball will soften your landing. If you jump more than a story, its probably going to burst.

Theoretically it might work, but you'll need an airbag the size of a blimp... and in that case a big parachute is lighter.

landing rockets can replace parachutes, but you'll need a good reserve of fuel.

 

[penlu]

I'm not sure how many internal systems this thing could have. At the size it is now, it would make life support a bit difficult.

The service module is about 0.65 meters tall and 0.95 meters wide. I think that we could dock with the ISS and hook up an oxygen hose, for example, before that life support gives out. And don't forget the RCS.

Who said there was no parachute? And is it really possible to keep the parachute in the nosecone? The SOC won't need one that big. Unless you can't support the craft's weight by its nosecone. I would like to think that that can be solved by using multiple latches to hold the nose shut. I mean, it's ok if the nose opens on the way down. Just hope that it won't rip off its hinges.

Maybe a helium balloon could be used? The problem would be storing the helium...

Has anyone solved the reentry problem yet? I think we could use an inflatable heat shield, but it might burn away, so I want to keep the ablative on. Or we could use a folding one like the one that would be used on Mars Direct.

Finally, to address any problems about the service module having to move away after jettison, I think a heat shield, especially one that has a larger surface area for drag than the service module (an inflatable one) could let the service speed forward and away as soon as the air took effect.

 

[Danny Ramone]

My question:

Is this supposed to be current tech or near tech? or are embellishments on the capability of current technology allowed?

My two cents (i feel like ive been a part of this from the beginning so its valid)

- I like the idea of a cockpit similar to spaceship one. One or two 5-7 Inch MFDs stacked ontop of each other between the pilots legs. I'm thinking an ipod touchish interface that would control everything, even attitude control could be via touchscreen (thogh operation of touchscreen with space suit gloves couldbe tricky) just an idea though.

- Helium could be stored in liquid form but it would be VERY heavy almost to the point that the extra weight would cause the craft to attain more velocity and thus negate the effect of using it to slow down. I like the idea of huge upper atmosphere drouges that will help slow down the craft.

 

[Cobalt]

The service module is about 0.65 meters tall and 0.95 meters wide. I think that we could dock with the ISS and hook up an oxygen hose, for example, before that life support gives out. And don't forget the RCS.

If we're aiming for ease of use, some folks might not be excellent at things like rendezvous and such. (I'm really bad at this stuff.) And if it were me, I'd be dead before I even got close! If we keep on the SM, it could hold the bulk of the life support necessary...and then the capsule itself holds a small reserve just for the reentry phase itself. Does that seem feasible to everyone?

Who said there was no parachute? And is it really possible to keep the parachute in the nosecone? The SOC won't need one that big. Unless you can't support the craft's weight by its nosecone. I would like to think that that can be solved by using multiple latches to hold the nose shut. I mean, it's ok if the nose opens on the way down. Just hope that it won't rip off its hinges.

That'd have to be a beastly nosecone.

Maybe a helium balloon could be used? The problem would be storing the helium...

Has anyone solved the reentry problem yet? I think we could use an inflatable heat shield, but it might burn away, so I want to keep the ablative on. Or we could use a folding one like the one that would be used on Mars Direct.

Inflatable heat shield sounds OK, it could also provide a cushion in the landing.

Finally, to address any problems about the service module having to move away after jettison, I think a heat shield, especially one that has a larger surface area for drag than the service module (an inflatable one) could let the service speed forward and away as soon as the air took effect.

To make sure I'm getting it, the inflation would knock it out of the way?

My question:

Is this supposed to be current tech or near tech? or are embellishments on the capability of current technology allowed?

Current/near.

My two cents (i feel like ive been a part of this from the beginning so its valid)

- I like the idea of a cockpit similar to spaceship one. One or two 5-7 Inch MFDs stacked ontop of each other between the pilots legs. I'm thinking an ipod touchish interface that would control everything, even attitude control could be via touchscreen (thogh operation of touchscreen with space suit gloves couldbe tricky) just an idea though.

I like the MFD idea, though I don't know how durable touchscreens are. I guess if MFDs can handle it a touch could too.

- Helium could be stored in liquid form but it would be VERY heavy almost to the point that the extra weight would cause the craft to attain more velocity and thus negate the effect of using it to slow down. I like the idea of huge upper atmosphere drouges that will help slow down the craft.

Yeah, parachutes seem to be the way to go.

I had an idea about the docking dilemma, but upon further thought it was a bad one. It would depend on several factors.

 

[penlu]

To make sure I'm getting it, the inflation would knock it out of the way?

No, I mean the drag caused by the larger area would make the capsule slow down faster than the service module. So then, the service module would start getting further and further away. Until it was gone. I don't believe that collision with the service module would be likely.

If we're aiming for ease of use, some folks might not be excellent at things like rendezvous and such. (I'm really bad at this stuff.) And if it were me, I'd be dead before I even got close! If we keep on the SM, it could hold the bulk of the life support necessary...and then the capsule itself holds a small reserve just for the reentry phase itself. Does that seem feasible to everyone?

The service module has all the life support. Space suit support could be turned on in case of emergency. Carbon dioxide would then be vented directly from the suit into the capsule. During reentry the suit's life support would be turned on, probably lasting for about five hours, which is a lot more than enough. I think I'll opt for the kind of reentry that involves turning your orbit into just a vertical fall into the atmosphere, not like the one the Soyuz does.

I had an idea about the docking dilemma, but upon further thought it was a bad one. It would depend on several factors.

What's your idea?

 

[Deke]

So when do I fly this spacecraft?

 

[Cobalt]

No, I mean the drag caused by the larger area would make the capsule slow down faster than the service module. So then, the service module would start getting further and further away. Until it was gone. I don't believe that collision with the service module would be likely.

Yeah, I think it'll be fine.

The service module has all the life support. Space suit support could be turned on in case of emergency. Carbon dioxide would then be vented directly from the suit into the capsule. During reentry the suit's life support would be turned on, probably lasting for about five hours, which is a lot more than enough. I think I'll opt for the kind of reentry that involves turning your orbit into just a vertical fall into the atmosphere, not like the one the Soyuz does.

Hm? I'm afraid I don't follow. (I'm new to a lot of this.)

What's your idea?

I'm scrapping it until I do a bit of research. It'd be another logistical nightmare.

So when do I fly this spacecraft?

Seems like a while from now, but odds are good it'll fly before the end of the year. (I hope.)

 

[penlu]

The Soyuz basically does a Hohmann transfer to a low altitude in order to reenter, instead of burning the engine until you're following a big parabola.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

That's why Soyuz has such a small engine and smaller fuel tanks than other vehicles. Simplest possible transfer. Unless you know the spacecraft will be circling the Earth for two or more orbits running on emergency oxygen, the suit shouldn't really need more than about 90 minutes.

 

[penlu]

That's why Soyuz has such a small engine and smaller fuel tanks than other vehicles. Simplest possible transfer. Unless you know the spacecraft will be circling the Earth for two or more orbits running on emergency oxygen, the suit shouldn't really need more than about 90 minutes.

Well, you have to do an EVA mission to get into any other spacecraft you're docked to. And what if there's an emergency in a situation that would take more than 90 minutes to return to Earth?

 

[Cobalt]

Late update with some bad news and good news.

Bad news: Computer restart caused loss of all first stage progress.
Good news: First stage progress was so little that it's easily remade.

 

[Jarvitä]

lol.

Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread!

Back on-topic, I was thinking about the docking problem.

Let's imagine our small orbital craft has a side-hatch like Mercury, only a bit bigger. My idea was to include an inflatable airlock, kind of like Восход had, that could be used for both EVAs and docking. This would make docking a bit tricky, since the spacecraft would be at an angle to the docking port, but I think it's a possible solution.

 

[dbeachy1]

Moderator Note: one-word post removed. As a reminder, one-word posts are prohibited by the forum rules.

 

[penlu]

An entire half of the spacecraft opens for EVAs. Is that a bit much? Anyhow, the capsule itself is nearly too small for a crew transfer tunnel. It's only 0.95 meters wide. To EVA the entire ship could be depressurized, its not a very large loss. The pilot himself is somewhere around, say, 50-60 percent of the volume in the craft already! But an inflatable airlock/docking port is interesting.

P.S. Sorry about the single word post.