The Landlubbers Battleship Thread - Now with 50% less cordite

K_Jameson

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Oook... I really want to make a sequel of my [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5886"]North Carolina Battleship[/ame] addon.

Suggestions?
 

K_Jameson

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I'm more focused on WWII ships... is my favourite period...

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ----------

Also I wanted do draw some modern small carrier to be used in the ASVI scenarios about Antares capsule ocean recovery... but modern ships are so ugly...
 

Urwumpe

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Also I wanted do draw some modern small carrier to be used in the ASVI scenarios about Antares capsule ocean recovery... but modern ships are so ugly...
What about the early Essex class? Well, the Essex class has everything from old to modern, depending on which modification you mean....
 

Urwumpe

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Of course, the modern Kuznetsov class could also be counted as beautiful in a sense... at least it looks wastly different than the many similar designed pure aircraft carriers, because of it rather being an aircraft carrying missile cruiser...
 

K_Jameson

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a modern design that I found pleasant is Kirov or Kiev class.

Also the cited (now uncommissioned) Virginia class nuclear cruiser
 

Linguofreak

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I'm more focused on WWII ships... is my favourite period...
What would probably be my favorite period, had the whole thing not been killed by the naval treaties, would have been the 1920s to early 1930s. If there had been much construction in that period, it would have been the heyday of the battleship: too early for aircraft to mess everything up, 18+ in. guns, and most of the relevant technologies close to maturity.
 

PhantomCruiser

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That read about like I expected. Even with additional "small boys" in the mix, I'd still give the IJN the edge, those ships just wouldn't be evenly matched (just my thoughts).
 

Urwumpe

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That read about like I expected. Even with additional "small boys" in the mix, I'd still give the IJN the edge, those ships just wouldn't be evenly matched (just my thoughts).
Exactly. What should be noted is, that the German ships had been great in WW1 and that gave the Nazis a good start into WW2 ... but the ship designs of WW2 had been utterly obsolete. Especially because of bad strategic planning. Even when they ignored the Washington treaty, the core systems had been based on WW1 technology.

The only true innovation of the German navy in WW2 had been the submarine class XXI... it just arrived far too late.

But also: I doubt the Japanese battleships had really such a great advantage as claimed there. They look great in numbers, but it is also easily visible, that those numbers don't work together with conflicts. Especially since nobody ever witnessed the gunnery of a Yamato. The few observations are anti-aircraft gunnery and the 18" guns had been performing very poorly there in the VERY few shots fired. The theoretically possible 550m CEP of the 18" guns should have been even less in a real battle (Yes, that means that there could be two Bismarck class battleships next to each other broadside to broadside, not moving or maneuvering - and less than 5% of the projectiles of a 18" gun would hit them). The turrets only rotated at 2° per second, enough for long range engagement, but too slow for a melee - you could just switch to local control and fire at the next best target you get. The rest of the IJN fleet was also stuck in WW1 and the IJN did not really have much joy in their torpedo advantage in real battles. They simply had too few torpedoes for such kinds of engagements. Especially at the maximum range, you needed many torpedoes for even having a tiny chance of hitting a battleship.

In practical reality, I think the battle between the rather antique but solid Bismarck and the overpowered Yamato could also have gone for the German ships. The Japanese ships would have been impossible to sink with 15" projectiles, maybe. They had been able to absorb a lot of punishment before sinking in their real battles. But also, it could have been much easier possible to make a Yamato class unable to fight, which is enough. The fire control systems had been very vulnerable there, the Yamatos had been very quickly harmless moving targets against aircraft. And again, a single 18" projectile at the stern of a Bismarck class could have made it unable to maneuver and should be able to knock a turret out. But somehow, the Yamato class really rather leaves the feeling of a feigned giant - the closer you get to it, the smaller it looks. I doubt that the Yamato would have had even a small chance in a battle against an Iowa.

But again, that would be something I would really like to somehow simulate with some comparable engine....

And speaking of WW1, the Derfflinger class is also a pretty ship of that era:

 

Linguofreak

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I doubt that the Yamato would have had even a small chance in a battle against an Iowa.
The real question there, I think, is whether American super-heavy shells were all they were cracked up to be. If they were, then Iowa's 16s were comparable to Yamato's 18s and the Iowas would almost certainly win every time. If not, I could easily see that engagement going the other way.

One possible complication is that American intelligence did not know (or at least believe) the size of the Yamatos until very late in the war. That might have contributed to some serious mistakes in an actual engagement.
 

Urwumpe

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The real question there, I think, is whether American super-heavy shells were all they were cracked up to be. If they were, then Iowa's 16s were comparable to Yamato's 18s and the Iowas would almost certainly win every time. If not, I could easily see that engagement going the other way.
Again, because of the smaller numbers, I doubt that the Yamato could have this chance. Especially the high estimated inaccuracy of the main artillery is pretty disappointing, just imagine you would have to zero in your fire control solution with a CEP of 550 meters. Against a target of 290 meters length. And that with staggered fire to keep the CEP as small as possible. The CEP of the Iowa class was 140 meters in practice for comparison. For one salvo by a single turret, it was even just 112 meters. The Yamato needed to be more lucky than its opponents.


One possible complication is that American intelligence did not know (or at least believe) the size of the Yamatos until very late in the war. That might have contributed to some serious mistakes in an actual engagement.
Yeah, but again, that is also what I mean with "feigned giant". It was excessively huge, but combat power does not measure in tons.

The USA lost only 8 aircraft in the operation to sink the complete fleet of the Yamato. Only two bombs of the first wave hit, but this was already enough to trigger a fire between magazines, that was never extinguished. The second wave of attacks already knocked the fire control system of the Yamato out and made it unable to return fire in an effective way. Even if it took another wave to sink it: The ship was doomed and was no serious threat anymore.

The USA even overestimated the Yamato class in all engagements, I think.
 

PhantomCruiser

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I think the Iowa's would win in a crappy weather engagement due to the "superior" RADAR.

Bull Halsey had a missed opportunity to get a crack at Yamato, how that fight would have ended has already been good for years of conjecture ;)
 

K_Jameson

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But also: I doubt the Japanese battleships had really such a great advantage as claimed there.
To make some serious damage to the Yamato armored citadel or belt, Bismarck should go at dangerously close range, nearly point-blank... and thus exposed to deadly fire by the 18.1 inches guns. If the Japanese could find a good fire solution, at such short distance the Nazi ship would be utterly obliterated.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

I think the Iowa's would win in a crappy weather engagement due to the "superior" RADAR.

Bull Halsey had a missed opportunity to get a crack at Yamato, how that fight would have ended has already been good for years of conjecture ;)
Achilles heel of Yamato was the underwater protection; in a traditional gun fight, sure, Iowa should hit first, and more often than the adversary, but sink that monster only with artillery could be a tough job...
 

Linguofreak

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I think the Iowa's would win in a crappy weather engagement due to the "superior" RADAR.

Bull Halsey had a missed opportunity to get a crack at Yamato, how that fight would have ended has already been good for years of conjecture ;)
Oh, certainly, in bad weather or nighttime the Iowas would be at a considerable advantage.

A daylight engagement could have gone badly if the super heavy shells didn't perform.
 

Urwumpe

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To make some serious damage to the Yamato armored citadel or belt, Bismarck should go at dangerously close range, nearly point-blank... and thus exposed to deadly fire by the 18.1 inches guns. If the Japanese could find a good fire solution, at such short distance the Nazi ship would be utterly obliterated.
Why at close range? The Bismarck guns had a great muzzle velocity and had been very accurate at range. it would never need to get closer than 15 km. At the same time, the Yamato would have problems hitting an island at such a range. Its guns had really low accuracy. Both opponents would need a single lucky hit to kill the opponent, but the Bismarck should have about 20 hits on the huge Japanese ship for each hit of the Yamato with its low CEP. Those 20 hits should have each the potential to disable fire control equipment and jam turrets. On the rear deck, a good hit on the Yamato could be capable of tearing the heavily armoured rudder machine compartment of the rest of the ship, since unarmored sections had been between. Regardless if Japanese or German: Each shell would arrive at a higher speed than the bombs dropped on the Yamato class by aircraft, while having twice the weight or more. And the shells had been designed for penetrating armor, contrary to the bombs used at that time.



And the rather low maximum train speed of the Yamato main artillery also means that it can't react quickly to maneuvers of the enemy and wave motion of the ship should also be problematic. In a real battle situation, the main guns would even be MORE inaccurate, if they fired full nine shell salvoes, even more inaccurate again. For comparison: The 16"/50 Mark 7 rotates at twice the speed of the Yamato, 4° per second. It had nearly the same range as the Yamato main guns. The 38 cm SK C/34 gun had 5 km less range than the Iowa or the Yamato, but its higher muzzle velocity improved its accuracy at maximum range - the effective combat distance should have been almost the same.

The poor accuracy of the Yamato class guns is documented in the few battles of them - and it was especially poor against aircraft, with its sluggish motion. At the same time, the great accuracy and skilled gunnery of the Bismarck is documented as well from the battle of the Denmark Strait.

I think the Iowa clearly ruled the waves there, it had been pretty accurate in terms of ballistics, had great fire control, a good mixture of attributes in general and the most modern armour.

And it had air superiority.... :lol:
 
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K_Jameson

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My previous statement about "point-blank range" was clearly an exaggeration.
Immunity zone of the Yamato's 410 mm belt should be around 25,000 / 27,000 meters against 406/45.
The Bismarck 380 had, let's say, one half of the penetration capability of the American gun. In fact, a weak gun. For comparison, the similar 381 gun of the Littorio class was considerably more powerful.
So yeah, at 15,000 Bismarck can begin to penetrate Yamato armor in some points. On the other hand, Yamato guns can penetrate Bismarck at any practical distance. At 15,000 the result of a direct hit can be devastating. OK Yamato seems unable to really hit something... but it hasn't had many real occasions...
 

Urwumpe

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Well, the ballistic test data of the Bismarck is not too bad:

No code has to be inserted here.

Comparing with the armor diagram of the Yamato, it has quite a few chances to hurt, especially the turret roof armor. (Though the magazine roof armor is a different category)

The size and weight of the projectile does not really equate to armor penetration, velocity and AP cap density is more important (See: Newton)

Of course, once the Yamato hits by plain chance, the damage will be huge - but not three times as huge as by the shell weight. And the armor penetration is not much higher compared to other guns, not even much higher than the tiny, WW1 era Bismarck guns. And inside the AP shells, there is just a tiny block of 24 kg explosives, behind a huge block of steel. While the Yamato shells had been much bigger and heavier, they did not carry more explosives than British or German shells.
 
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