Suggestions to improve usability

[deltaVee]

I have a number of suggestions to help reduce the learning curve of orbiter. To the extent that these are spacecraft specific they apply to the built-in Atlantis.

(1) The "kill rotation" command should use the aero surfaces too, not just the RCS

(2) Auto-orient commands such as "prograde" oscillate on high time accelerations such as 1000x. It's really annoying to forget to turn one of these modes off, accelerate time to approach the next burn, and have it oscillate out of control throwing precious RCS prop out the window.

(3) The scenario "Atlantis Reentry 2" is too high and fast for a sensible Cape Canavaral landing. Stopping in time requires pulling far more gees than real shuttles can presumably handle. It should reach the atmosphere a few thousand kilometers further west.

(4) To allow Atlantis to work with "limited fuel" turned off how about making fuel be used as normal even with limited fuel turned off, but allow thrust to continue even after all fuel is exhausted?

(5) When heading is straight up the surface HUD and MFD spin around wildly and it's hard to tell which way is which. This matters since shuttle launch starts straight up. How about replacing the "+90" in the surface HUD with an arrow pointing north? That would give you at least a rough idea of your orientation.

 

[pattersoncr]

1) There's an option in OrbiterSound that automatically turns off any autopilots if time-accel is >10.
5) [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2802"]Launch MFD - v 1.2.8[/ame]

 

[Oceanic]

first things first

now my 2 cents on your suggestions

#1 sounds good, but as far as i know the prograde, retrograde & co autopilots are hard-coded in orbiter, it has noting to do with Atlantis. if such a system would be implemented it could create complications with ships that don't have ailerons

#2 OrbiterSound option or "kill angular velocity" in the scenario editor

#3 yes, but don't forget that aerodynamics of the default Atlantis are not real & that a reentry is one of the hardest thing to do

#4 no, there are plenty of ships available in the default orbiter installation that are suited for beginners. everyone that read the orbiter manual will know that the shuttle is not easy to fly. if they didn't maybe that will teach them that it is essential to read manuals in the orbiter world.

#5 i got used to the launch mfd

i think it could be a good idea to include the fantastic Go Play in Space tutorial.

 

[Linguofreak]

first things first

now my 2 cents on your suggestions

#1 sounds good, but as far as i know the prograde, retrograde & co autopilots are hard-coded in orbiter, it has noting to do with Atlantis. if such a system would be implemented it could create complications with ships that don't have ailerons

Not really. You could just work the AP's in as corrections to joystick input instead of as direct commands to thrusters/airfoils.

 

[Hielor]

If you're in the atmosphere and want a killrot using the aero surfaces, let go of the stick. The ship will return to its neural attitude.

 

[Linguofreak]

I have a number of suggestions to help reduce the learning curve of orbiter. To the extent that these are spacecraft specific they apply to the built-in Atlantis.

(1) The "kill rotation" command should use the aero surfaces too, not just the RCS

(2) Auto-orient commands such as "prograde" oscillate on high time accelerations such as 1000x. It's really annoying to forget to turn one of these modes off, accelerate time to approach the next burn, and have it oscillate out of control throwing precious RCS prop out the window.

It would be nice to have control inputs scale down at high time accels.

That said, I find the problem isn't that bad for low time accel, you usually figure out that you've left an autopilot on and step back down fairly quickly. And in any situation where I'm about to go to a high time accel, I've worked up a healthy paranoia about doing that sort of thing: before going over 100x I set my joystick aside, turn the RCS mode to off, hit killrot to disengage any operating AP's, and then step up the time accel slowly, looking for oscillation on each step.

---------- Post added at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 AM ----------

If you're in the atmosphere and want a killrot using the aero surfaces, let go of the stick. The ship will return to its neural attitude.

This is not, however, an absolute killrot, unless the ship is trimmed very precisely, flying at a constant speed, and has no bank. The XR-series does have an attitude hold AP, though, and I think Aerobrake MFD has some attitude hold functions.

 

[Hielor]

This is not, however, an absolute killrot, unless the ship is trimmed very precisely, flying at a constant speed, and has no bank. The XR-series does have an attitude hold AP, though, and I think Aerobrake MFD has some attitude hold functions.

"Killrot" doesn't really have much meaning in the atmosphere, because you have to constantly apply an input to compensate-- "attitude hold" is more correct.

 

[deltaVee]

If you're in the atmosphere and want a killrot using the aero surfaces, let go of the stick. The ship will return to its neural attitude.

I don't want to return to a neutral attitude. I want to kill my rotation and/or hold my current attitude. It's really unintuitive that 2,4,6, 8, 1 and 3 on the keypad use aero surfaces if available but 5 does not.

By the way if the user commands a rotation in the opposite direction that one of the auto rotate functions is thrusting then the auto function should be automatically disabled. This is especially an issue when using kill rotation within the atmosphere; in space one gets used to kill rotation turning off automatically so it's easy to forget that it stays on longer in the atmosphere.

Thanks everyone for the workarounds. Despite the existence of these workarounds may I suggest the incorporation of some of these features into core orbiter? Using a plugin titled "OrbiterSound" to fix a bug in the RCS system is not user friendly at all! At the very least the orbiter manual should come with a more complete list of popular addons and/or point the user to a such a list.

I recognize that rocket science (roughly speaking) is unintuitive so an accurate simulation will have a steep learning curve. But that doesn't mean that difficulty of learning should be ignored!

 

[Bj]

By the way if the user commands a rotation in the opposite direction that one of the auto rotate functions is thrusting then the auto function should be automatically disabled. This is especially an issue when using kill rotation within the atmosphere; in space one gets used to kill rotation turning off automatically so it's easy to forget that it stays on longer in the atmosphere.

the kill rotation autopilot turns off automatically when the rotation has been 'killed' in space the faster you are spinning the longer it will take for the rotation to be killed. Likewise in the atmosphere your speed, forward direction and atmospheric pressure all take into account. Kill-rot should hardly ever be needed in the atmosphere, because *usually* your nose is pointed to the direction of the incoming wind. Its just like flying an airplane... and I don't see any 'kill rotation' in aircraft, do you?

At the very least the orbiter manual should come with a more complete list of popular addons and/or point the user to a such a list.

Ahem. Recommended addons

and perhaps

Recommended tutorials

 

[ar81]

I might like to suggest a stock fixed AoA autopilot, like the one DGIV has.

 

[deltaVee]

Ahem. Recommended addons

and perhaps

Recommended tutorials

Thanks for the pointer to the list of recommended addons. That looks useful but I have three concerns with it:
(1) How is someone starting from the orbiter download page supposed to find it and quickly determine if it's trustworthy?
(2) It's way too long. It should have a list of a handful of representative most helpful addons at the top.
(3) Give a short description of each addon written by a neutral party. Include important details such as the fact that orbiter sound does more than just sound. [Edit: things like moon textures are pretty self-explanatory, but things like MFDs are not.]

 

[Bj]

(1) How is someone starting from the orbiter download page supposed to find it and quickly determine if it's trustworthy?

Trustworthy? Do you mean recommended?

(2) It's way too long. It should have a list of a handful of representative most helpful addons at the top.

Its not that long, its very clearly spaced out with nice big red subheadings. What, are we supposed to stop recommending addons just so the list is shorter? Go ahead and search through OH then if you don't want to read our recommendations. There is thousands of OH addons, good luck sorting through them all...:thumbup:

(3) Give a short description of each addon written by a neutral party. Include important details such as the fact that orbiter sound does more than just sound. [Edit: things like moon textures are pretty self-explanatory, but things like MFDs are not.]

Neutral party? what for?
Listen up my young padawan... you have to research it just a little, all the information is already there writtten by the author. You just have to read the description and the documentation.

Take TransX for instance. Who would know what that is by the title, right? Clicking on it gets the description of it, and within the brief description it links to another page making a very detailed documentation of what it does, can do and even how to use it.

 

[Linguofreak]

Trustworthy? Do you mean recommended?

No, I think he means "trustworthy," as in "not malware." But that's why it's always good to virus scan everything you download before you run it, whether you download it on an above-board and well truted site like Orbithangar, or some seedy, illegal warez site hosted at www.trojanhorsewarehouse.com.

Also, most addons for Orbiter are data addons, they don't add any new executable functionality to the program, so they aren't a danger. However, any addon with a .dll module should definitely be virus scanned before Orbiter is run with the module activated. I generally trust the Orbiter community, and any malware addon would definitely be taken off of Orbithangar very quickly, but it's a good habit to have.

He may also mean "how do I know the description is trustworthy?" In other words, "how do I know the author isn't over hyping his addon."

Neutral party? what for?

Probably because he's afraid that authors will over-hype or otherwise falsely advertize their addons. It's generally something I'm not too worried about. It only takes a minute or two to dowload and test most addons, and if you're not satisfied you can always delete them.

 

[Hielor]

The addon's presence on the "recommended" list is its recommendation by a neutral party. Addon developers can't add themselves to that list.