Space Shuttle Columbia - What could they have done?

[Andy44]

About seeing the wing; they could've all suited up in LES suits, depres the cabin, and have somebody poke his head out the side hatch with a camera. This option was discussed on one of Mullane's flights, when they had problems with the airlock. It was deemed too risky to go outside that way due to lack of handholds and the fact that the cockpit avionics are air-cooled and might overheat in a vacuum.

It's quite obvious that all of these wild ideas for getting outside were not taken seriously, because the damage was not expected to be so heavy.

About "preventable"; this is nothing more than a thought exercise. An accident is only preventable if the right people see and comprehend the danger in time to stop it, and if they are not in a fixed mindset that blinds them to the danger.

History has shown that this did not happen, so if you are a predestinationist, you must conclude that the accidents were not preventable. And it's easy to be a predestinationist about that which has already happened and is fixed in stone!

 

[Keatah]

I remember seeing some film of the launch showing the foam fall off and shatter like an exploding bomb when it hit the wing. If that couldn't pass the point that something went wrong, I guess nothing could.

I guess the managers at Nasa simply tried to ignore this foam strike on so many levels. And the engineers were to 'scared into submission' to speak up. This is just like the bp oil spill, a cost cutting measure. Cut costs, and don't shake up the status quo.

Well anyways, I reviewed a lot of the videos on my own and yeh the ice-laden foam does come from up top 'da stack. This website -- http://dementedmind.org/Last Words on Columbia.htm -- seems to think otherwise. I guess the internet is the garbage dump for ill-informed conspiracy theory generators!

Anyways, this isn't your ordinary post-office packaging foam you ship wine glasses in. I'm sure it's a lot more dense, and where attached to the et, it probably absorbs moisture and freezes. So we have ice too.

Well in all my research I found this! I always wanted one of these to shoot my idiot science teacher! -- http://caib.nasa.gov/images/photos/materials_testing/impact_test_20030707/download/AirGun-Before.jpg


And various pieces of cool-looking FOAM!
http://caib.nasa.gov/photos/view714d.html?photo_id=512
http://caib.nasa.gov/photos/viewee98.html?photo_id=520
http://caib.nasa.gov/photos/view7f44.html?photo_id=519

 

[garyw]

Anyways, this isn't your ordinary post-office packaging foam you ship wine glasses in. I'm sure it's a lot more dense, and where attached to the et, it probably absorbs moisture and freezes. So we have ice too.

You still haven't read the CAIB report have you?

The foam is very lightweight. It has to be because for every pound of foam you lose a pound of payload. Weight=bad.

It is a closed cell foam therefore is does NOT absorb moisture. Tanks have been out in the rain with no moisture absorption. Water=weight=bad!

please, please, PLEASE read the CAIB report.

 

[Kyle]

Columbia was screwed, no way any material from the middeck could provide protection for very critical RCC panel. Atlantis could have been processed for a emergency mission, her mission processing was well underway at that point. Collins, Kelly, Noguchi, and Robinson would have been rescue crew. It IS possible to turn around a shuttle in a few weeks from two missions, STS-51J launched in Oct and STS-61B launched in late Nov and STS-114 was already well underway with processing. It would however have been Apollo 13 LEO version, as the crew would have had to build a filter to filter out C02.

 

[Urwumpe]

Anyways, this isn't your ordinary post-office packaging foam you ship wine glasses in. I'm sure it's a lot more dense, and where attached to the et, it probably absorbs moisture and freezes. So we have ice too.

No ice - but liquid nitrogen is possible behind the foam. The foam has exactly the task to prevent the formation of ice. The ice team does not control if too much ice formed at the tank, but if ice formed at all, which would be an indication of a problem. For example the pipes used for tanking operations are a possible location for ice to form.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/behindscenes/ice_team.html

The foam is BX-250 and completely air-tight. it is no sponge, but foam. Just like any other foam doesn't get soaked with water if you throw it into the water. BX-250 is one of the last applications of CFCs, NASA has not yet found a replacement for making such foam:

http://www1.nasa.gov/pdf/45327main_hcfc2_001.pdf

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/63758main_TPS_FACT_SHEET.pdf

2.25 pounds per cubic foot is now not that much (36 kg/m³ - water is 1000 kg/m³, sea level air 1.28 kg/m³)

 

[Keatah]

ok ok!! I will read the report!!

 

[ObeWan]

It was foam. It came from the lefthand bipod ramp. They had similar incident on STS-112 where a similar chunk of foam from the lefthand bipod ramp impacted the left SRB aft IEA box causing a good sized dent in it.

See a photo of the ET with damaged bipod ramp here: http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/2157main_sts112_et_hi.jpg

Videos of the foam impact testing done at the Southwest Research Institute can be found here: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/video/shuttle/sts-107/html/investigation.html

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------

You should really read the final report of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board(CAIB): http://www.nasa.gov/columbia/home/CAIB_Vol1.html

Sorry. It wasn't foam. The CAIB describes it as "an object the size of a briefcase..." then gives the dimensions... then the CIAB clearly states that there is no place on the ET or STACK containing foam of this dimension. It was ICE attached to a piece of foam. EVERYBODY AT KSC knew it. IT DID NOT COME FROM THE BIPOD STRUT. Look at the video! This stuff about 2d 3d is a load.

 

[Urwumpe]

Sorry. It wasn't foam. The CAIB describes it as "an object the size of a briefcase..." then gives the dimensions... then the CIAB clearly states that there is no place on the ET or STACK containing foam of this dimension. It was ICE attached to a piece of foam. EVERYBODY AT KSC knew it. IT DID NOT COME FROM THE BIPOD STRUT. Look at the video! This stuff about 2d 3d is a load.

Read the CAIB report, please. You are just shouting around without knowing even just how the ET looks like.

From the Volume 1 report of the CAIB report (Paragraph 3.1, page 49):

The breach was initiated by a piece of insulating foam that separated
from the left bipod ramp of the External Tank and struck the wing in the vicinity of the lower half of Rein-forced Carbon-Carbon panel 8 at 81.9 seconds after launch.

 

[garyw]

One other thing, the ET is part of the shuttle stack so I don't know which CAIB report you are reading but it's not the same one I've got.

 

[ObeWan]

Read the CAIB report, please. You are just shouting around without knowing even just how the ET looks like.

From the Volume 1 report of the CAIB report (Paragraph 3.1, page 49):

The breach was initiated by a piece of insulating foam that separated
from the left bipod ramp of the External Tank and struck the wing in the vicinity of the lower half of Rein-forced Carbon-Carbon panel 8 at 81.9 seconds after launch.

One other thing, the ET is part of the shuttle stack so I don't know which CAIB report you are reading but it's not the same one I've got.

Excuse me for not including the words "or anywhere else on 'the stack'". I thought you guys were more astute.
Yes I read the CAIB report... the same hard copy that my friend of 35 years mailed to me the day after they were passed out to him and all the other Managers at KSC. I hadn't talked to him for a week or so when the news came on a Saturday morning about Colombia. I called him immediately, he wasn't home, he was at KSC. Everyone was. He immediately emailed me the E212.mpg film. I asked him if they had known what was going to happen. His reply was, "All I can say on the phone is that we knew they were in deep do-do. Everyone here knows that it [whats in the launch video] was a HUGE block of ice. No one knows where it came from. Ham came out and announced that it was a piece of foam. If I want to put my kids through College and pay my mortgage, that is what it is." [This is a compilation of two different phone conversations.]
My friend, who was the Supervisor of Shuttle Recycling, subsequently sent me three PDF's of Emails generated between launch and destruction of Colombia, before he deleted them, and all other relevant material, from his home and work computers. Only one PDF survived the lightning strike destruction of my twin hard drives years ago as it was on a floppy. It can be downloaded at http://dementedmind.org/Assets/PDF%20File/COL_debris_email.pdf
FYI, CAIB report Section 3.1 The Physical Cause was written well before the CAIB was ever formed. The CAIB, nowhere addresses any 'Scientific Proof' or elaboration on S 3.1. This CAUSAL FINDING is merely the final form of the POSITION stated by NASA shortly after the destruction of Shuttle OV-102.
Two years, as I recall, after the initial CAIB release, I was listening to a late night talk show. The host began as usual with a news recap of news not usually broadcast on the networks. I was dumbfounded to hear "Today NASA announced that it was ICE and not FOAM that struck Colombia subsequently killing her crew..." I'll never forget the words. I immediately called the station and got hold of the head producer. "Tell me the source of that NASA anouncment you just made!" I demanded. He asked me, "Well is it true?" "Yes." I replied, "But it absolutely invalidates the 'findings' of the CIAB report." We argued for 10 minutes, but he fluffed me off without a verifiable source and a "Send us an email. We will get back to you on that." They never did. THE ONLY REASON I'M TELLING YOU THIS LITTLE STORY, is that incident pissed me off so much I sat down, put together and published Columbia’s Last Words – Last Words on Columbia. For years, week after week, I get 10 or so hits on that article from all over the world, including various departments of NASA. For some reason people still care... but not here. Nooo.

 

[dougkeenan]

THE ONLY REASON I'M TELLING YOU THIS LITTLE STORY, is that incident pissed me off so much I sat down, put together and published Columbia’s Last Words – Last Words on Columbia. For years, week after week, I get 10 or so hits on that article from all over the world, including various departments of NASA. For some reason people still care... but not here. Nooo.

Here, let's tally that up to a dozen or so: http://dementedmind.org/Last Words on Columbia.htm

 

[Urwumpe]

Sorry, but you are telling us the fairy tales.

First of all, the email doesn't support your version at all. Nobody in the whole email supports your claim of "No piece of foam large enough", "must be ice", etc.

Next, there is no "My friend, who was the Supervisor of Shuttle Recycling". Don't try arguments by authority here. The United Space Alliance doesn't do shuttle recycling (yet). The task is called "Orbiter Ground Turn-Around", and there is no single supervisor of this task. Also, he should have been able to tell you something smarter than what you say.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/sts/turnaround.html

Also, you are admitting a criminal act: "before he deleted them, and all other relevant material, from his home and work computers." So your "friend" deleted government material and withheld evidence from the CAIB. Can get him into jail for quite a long time. But luckily, your story can be found wrong easily.

The emails are all from within the LARC. Ground Turn Around is done by KSC and USA. So your friend can't have been in possession of such emails on his work computer without traveling to Virginia and breaking into another NASA work computer.

Of course, maybe the story is far less mysterious as you claim, and in reality you can download them for free and without criminal acts:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/2735main_COL_foia_email_2.pdf

And you can still try to insult us...we won't feel insulted. and if you can't deal with proper image analysis, NASA can:

http://caib.nasa.gov/news/documents/impact_velocity.pdf

They must have read your favorite conspiracy homepage too, because their tone in the analysis is a tiny bit cynical on people who think not knowing about basic physics is enough qualification to doubt the official numbers...

NASA even explained how they did the video analysis...

http://www.nasa.gov/columbia/caib/PDFS/VOL3/E02.PDF

Maybe you can write as much about how you came to your conclusions and explain it as well...you don't even need to be a computer scientist to understand what the people did there...The E-212 camera feed isn't even the best of the impact sequence, since it was almost behind the debris trajectory, the E-208 shows the trajectory much better, since it saw the impact from the side.

EDIT: 10 hits per week is also Internet background noise. A homepage on gardening gets more hits per day.

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

Here, let's tally that up to a dozen or so: http://dementedmind.org/Last%20Words%20on%20Columbia.htm

I can make it about 1000 this week...alone.

 

[garyw]

Excuse me for not including the words "or anywhere else on 'the stack'". I thought you guys were more astute.

Some people aren't, so best to avoid ambiguities.

Yes I read the CAIB report... the same hard copy that my friend of 35 years mailed to me the day after they were passed out to him and all the other Managers at KSC. I hadn't talked to him for a week or so when the news came on a Saturday morning about Colombia. I called him immediately, he wasn't home, he was at KSC. Everyone was. He immediately emailed me the E212.mpg film. I asked him if they had known what was going to happen. His reply was, "All I can say on the phone is that we knew they were in deep do-do. Everyone here knows that it [whats in the launch video] was a HUGE block of ice.

I assume he went to the FBI and to the CAIB with this information?

No one knows where it came from. Ham came out and announced that it was a piece of foam. If I want to put my kids through College and pay my mortgage, that is what it is." [This is a compilation of two different phone conversations.]

So he got threatened? Definetly a case for the FBI.

My friend, who was the Supervisor of Shuttle Recycling

Never head of it - what is it? Do you have links to NASA's site for the recycling facility?

, subsequently sent me three PDF's of Emails generated between launch and destruction of Colombia, before he deleted them, and all other relevant material, from his home and work computers.

It's Columbia and he broke the law requiring the preservation of all data.

Only one PDF survived the lightning strike destruction of my twin hard drives years ago as it was on a floppy.

How unlucky can you get? Did you make the FBI aware of the email? What about the names of the senders? JSC should be able to restore them.

FYI, CAIB report Section 3.1 The Physical Cause was written well before the CAIB was ever formed. The CAIB, nowhere addresses any 'Scientific Proof' or elaboration on S 3.1. This CAUSAL FINDING is merely the final form of the POSITION stated by NASA shortly after the destruction of Shuttle OV-102.

Really? I'd like to seem some evidence of that because if it's true (and I'm not saying it isn't but I like verifiable facts) then it's an important piece of information.

For some reason people still care... but not here. Nooo.

Now that's plain wrong. You have to accept that there are a lot of conspiracy nuts on the internet. CAIB put forward a very credible case with a team of several hundred researchers with very good accreditations so you have to understand why people (including me) are skeptical. Also, the fact that the evidence you have was destroyed by lighting and never passed onto the FBI or stored off-site is just the sort of thing a conspiracy nut would claim - again, I'm not saying you are, I'm establishing an evidence trail. Proof basically.

Finally, Where DID this mythical ice come from? The ET foam is closed cell so ice can't form. If it was ice why the lies? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[DaveS]

So in essence, you don't think that foam can damage a shuttle orbiter's Thermal Protection System?

So there's no way that something as light and low-density as a suit-cased size of foam from the left-hand bipod foam ramp could have brought down something as large as Columbia?

 

[Urwumpe]

Everyone at KSC had copies of the emails.

And now, thanks to the Freedom of Information act, every one in the world has copies...

Also, your email was from the LARC, not KSC:

KSC = Kennedy Space Center ---> Florida
LARC = Langley Research Center ---> Virginia.

And no, there is no global mailing list for NASA. And not every NASA employee gets a copy of any NASA email. That is not because it is not technically impossible, but simply useless.

If I thought it would do any good I'd give you his email... he still works there.

Would be nice, so we can ask him directly about it and don't need to rely on you.

 

[Hartmann]

Nasa for sure know that the damage was serious but the previous STS-27 managed to return after extensive tiles damage.

http://www.astronautix.com/flights/sts27.htm

Perhaps they thougth that could return safely like STS-27 and don´t did nothing to try to prevent a disaster.

But the only realistic option could be a rescue mission, but the question is if they can last 2 weeks in space or more without ressuply

 

[Urwumpe]

Perhaps they thougth that could return safely like STS-27 and don´t did nothing to try to prevent a disaster.

Was actually really the reference. One documentary also stated that the automatic debris strike prediction software did not include the RCC panels in the heuristic analysis...there was simply no data in which RCC panels had been hit, to calculate with it.

But the only realistic option could be a rescue mission, but the question is if they can last 2 weeks in space or more without ressuply

Would have been longer than two weeks according to the CAIB, STS-107 happened right at the worst time of the processing for the other orbiters. Atlantis would have been ready for launch soonest on February 10, one month sooner than planned. The problem was that this should have been decided before flight day 7 on STS-107...but by that day, the damage wasn't really known and NASA was reluctant to check it. The launch window for Atlantis would have been from February 10 to 15, with Columbia running out of consumables right after February 15. Columbia would have been in orbit for 25-30 days by then, that is really literally sucking every gram of consumables out of the tanks.