Project Roskosmos "тайга" Lunar Lander

[N_Molson]

I forgot something that will help us. :idea:

The Lander (it's going to have a name soon ) mass is 10 tons. The Proton can launch 21 tons to LEO. A partially filled BreezeM would help to get the 300-400 m/s we miss.

The tricky part is to dock the BreezeM/Lander stack to the KVTK. But if I can code an "alternate RCS translation program" (a redefinition of the Lander RCS) that gives a minimal manoeuvrability to the stack, that could make it... :hmm:

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 AM ----------

The Lander is now APAS-compatible, we are going to use that hybrid system for all the spacecrafts to ensure a maximal compatibility. It also adds a nice touch of realism. I'll have to move the hi-gain antenna.

APAS mesh by Thorton.

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

I tried to launch 2 Fregats with a SoyuzFG ... After orbital insertion there was 179 kgs of propellant left in the first one... Launching a single Fregat would have been more efficient :blink:

---------- Post added at 05:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------

Mh, I managed to make a rendez-vous with a single Fregat and the TMA in LLO, but with 500 kgs of propellant left, it was too short to escape Moon's SOI.

The only other solution is now to try the ProtonM / BreezeM !

 

[Grover]

whats the Dv of the Soyuz on its own? i would imagine that it had enough to do TEI on its own (especially if you jettisoned the redundant Cargo Module). then its just a case of making sure the heatshield can manage direct re-entry

surely if it can perform orbital operations, it should have at least 500m/s (orbit insertion, plane alignment, orbit sync +MCCs and de-orbit), and you only need 800/900 to get back from the moon, a little tug could help with that maybe...

 

[N_Molson]

The SoyuzTMA has a Dv of 390 m/s. This is very low.

I just tried to send a 21-tons BreezeM tug in Lunar Orbit. After a rather optimal flight with little plane changes required, I managed to sync orbits and dock it with the SoyuzTMA. I had 1350 kgs of propellant in the BreezeM. According to the excellent LunarTransferMFD, 3500 kgs are required.

So it was an epic failure.

At this point I don't know what to try next. A ProtonM / KVTK / Fregat ? A lot of the KVTK fuel will be wasted for the orbital insertion (we have a 30 tons stack...), I'm not even sure it will work. And since the spacetugs have no linear attitude control, they can't dock by themselves...

A ProtonM / Fregat / Fregat / Fregat ? No problem for the orbital insertion (19.5 tons), but that stack will be very inefficient I fear.

Well I'm going to try the KVTK/Fregat and see what remains after Orbital Insertion, then do the maths...

 

[Tacolev]

Wasn't there a forum post a few years ago with someone claiming to have used Proton/KVRB/soyuz-tma for lunar orbit operations? I remain skeptical (Perhaps he made config files for KVRB and made them a little too optimistic) but he posted plenty of pictures of his stack.

EDIT: Found it. http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=5055&highlight=proton+kvrb

Maybe he was refueling something in lunar orbit?

 

[N_Molson]

Lunar Orbital : Mission Successful !

Nice discovery. He uses a man-rated Proton, with the TMA atop the KVRB. Such a stack has a mass of more than 30 tons, I suspect he boosted his Proton...

Edit : I still have to do the maths, but that stack deserved a pic anyway :

Edit 2 :

Interesting Tsiolkovsky match. KVTK/Fregat wins, even with 1/3 of the KVTK propellant burned for orbital insertion :

Dv (KVTK(Fuel*0.66) / Fregat) = 8734.33

Dv (Fregat / Fregat / Fregat) = 7815.1

---------- Post added 06-12-11 at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-11-11 at 09:09 PM ----------

Yeepee, I did it ! The crew was back on Earth after a 20 days odyssey ! That was something ! :woohoo:

The KVTK / Fregat was the good solution. With the KVTK I had enough Dv to insert the Fregat in LLO and perform the plane change to fetch the stranded TMA.

The SoyuzTMA SA should have burned up on reentry, but a miraculous Probe intervention reduced its velocity by 3 km/s, within the heat shield limits.

The capsule landed in the Sahara, Algeria, south of the town of Oran. A recovery team was quickly sent there as dawn rose over the desert

More pics and details of that Odyssey once I'll have sorted the .scn files and the screenshots

 

[N_Molson]

Here is the complete photo album of the mission :

 

[N_Molson]

Second part :



MISSION FACTS

First Launch :

Proton-M / KVTK
05/10/2018, 02:30:00 GMT

Second Launch :

Soyuz-FG / TMA (Manned)
05/10/2018, 23:34:16 GMT

Third Launch :

Proton-M / KVTK / Fregat
09/10/2018, 03:48:07 GMT

LOI burn : 09/10/2018, 03:45 GMT

TEI burn : 14/10/2018, 21:30 GMT


Landing : Sahara, Algeria, 18/10/2018, 05:58:47 GMT

Mission duration (manned) : 12 days, 6 hours, 24 minutes and 31 seconds

Total duration : 13 days, 5 hours, 56 minutes and 17 seconds

Time spent in Lunar Orbit by the crew : 5 days, 17 hours, 45 minutes


The launches should have been scheduled differently :

Launch 1 : Proton-M / KVTK / Fregat (1 month or more before the 2 following launches).

-> Fregat LLO insertion

Launch 2 : Soyuz-FG / TMA (Manned)

-> LEO insertion

Launch 3 : Proton-M / KVTK (The next day)

-> Rendez-vous with the Soyuz-TMA and TLI


From there I can deduct the mission architecture of the forecoming Manned Lunar Landing :

Launch 1 : Proton-M / KVTK / Fregat

-> Fregat LLO insertion (small solar panels on the Fregat required, to keep it "alive" in LLO for a long duration).

Launch 2 : Proton-M / BreezeM / Lunar Lander (1-3 months later)

-> The Lunar Lander is sent to LEO

Launch 3 : Proton-M / KVTK#1 (in the following 24 hours)

-> Docking between the Lunar Lander and the KVTK#1
-> TLI
-> LOI (72 hours later, Lunar Lander in LLO)

Launch 4 : Soyuz-FG / TMA (proceed when confirmation of a successful Lander LOI)

-> LEO insertion, systems check and crew acclimatation
-> Rendez-vous with the KVTK#2

Launch 5 : Proton-M / KVTK#2 (in the next 24 hours)

-> Docking with SoyuzTMA and TLI
-> LOI (72 hours later)

At this point, the Lunar Lander spent roughly a week in LLO. The fuel cell still can provide 10-13 days of power supply, which is more than required.

-> TMA / Lander rendez-vous
-> Lunar Landing
-> TMA / Lander rendez-vous
-> TMA / Fregat rendez-vous (still orbiting in LLO)
-> TEI
-> Recovery/Landing


Final decision : go for flight !

5 launches and 4 Proton-M used, that's not so unrealistic with a long-term planning in my opinion. This is going to be a great Orbiter mission !

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------

And here is how to get the 10-tons lander in LLO in 2 launches :

1st launch : Proton-M / Fregat / Lander

2nd launch : Proton-M / KVTK

After docking we have :

Fregat (6,500 kg) / KVTK (22,800 kg) / Lander (10,000 kg)

The ignition order is very important, since the KVTK has a much better ISP.

Dv produced by the Fregat burn :

Dv (f) = 3207.9 * ln (39,300/33,950)
Dv (f) = 469.4 m/s

-> Fregat jettison

Dv produced by the KVTK burn :

Dv (k) = 4542 * ln (32,800/14,300)
Dv (k) = 3770.6 m/s

Total Dv :

Dv = Dv (f) + Dv (k)
Dv = 474.1 + 3770.6
Dv = 4244.7

Just enough for LOI (4200 m/s). For better results, it would be possible to upgrade the Fregat, because the Lander + Fregat stack has a mass of 16,500 kg "only". The Proton-M can send 21,000 kg in LEO. We could use a derivative of the Fregat, like the Fregat-SB which is going to be used for the Phobos-Grunt mission.

That would allow some margin that could prove useful for plane alignements or MCC.

---------- Post added at 11:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

And by the way, I missed something obvious and even simpler : if we launch the Lander atop a KVTK, the Dv problems are over... :facepalm:

That stage is very powerful (because of it's ISP of 4542 m/s) compared to the Kero/LOX or hypergolic stuff, with ISPs in the 3100-3200 m/s range... And ISP is the real key of Tsiolkovsky's equation.

I just tried it and got the Lander in LEO with 11 tons of LOX/LH2 left in the KVTK. Now I have to dock it to the other (almost) full KVTK and our problems are over.

Maybe I could design a "docking pack" that could be added to the Lander as a jettisonable set of hypergolic thrusters (and wiring it to the KVTK RCS would allow to get a decent attitude control), because manoeuvrability is going to be the problem this time. :hmm:

 

[Loru]

What are the overall dimensions of Lander? I mean with all things stowed.

 

[N_Molson]

It is way smaller than the LEM, for sure :

Height : count 7 meters
Radius : max 4.5 meters

So a 4.5 * 7 meters cylinder is a good template (with gear stowed).

(already posted)

---------- Post added at 07:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

Another stack candidate, less overkill than the 2 x KVTK monster : the Lander is launched atop a "mere" block DM.

The difficult part is to perform a TLI burn in two parts, MFDs like TransX doesn't handle this case. There is a 180° manoeuver to perform between the burns, which takes some time.

An idea for MFD developpers ?

Also, in Orbiter, the docking ports / attachments handling of the thing is a little weird in the current state, but nothing that can't be resolved by coding.

 

[Tacolev]

Perhaps coding of lander interface to allow dynamic specification of axis for main thrust, then using remote vessel control for successive burns of tugs. This minimizes UI futzing-around time and helps keep the story straight for transx or imfd as all of the nav instructions stay in one vessel throughout the burn.

 

[N_Molson]

Yes, I think that the BlockDM and the Lander should be defined as a single vessel, with the blockDM as a jettisonable stage of the Lander. I have to see with Thorton if it is possible and how.

I solved the TLI burn problem quite easily. Just split it in two orbits. The first burn raises the ApA to 2000M, then the second finishes the job at the next orbit. TransX handles that very well, the result was as precise it could be. :thumbup:

So I managed to insert the Lander in LLO and even have propellant left for plane change if needed. Cool !

So at this point we have everything tested and checked for the lunar landing !

4 Proton launches, 1 Soyuz FG/TMA.

Back to coding...

 

[boby_nadeau]

4 Proton launches, 1 Soyuz FG/TMA.

It would be very expansive, in't it ?
You should try to minimise the number of launch to make it the most realistic possible.

 

[N_Molson]

It would be very expansive, in't it ?
You should try to minimise the number of launch to make it the most realistic possible.

I don't agree. It isn't less expensive to develop in less than 10 years an HLV. As far as I know, there are no such projects in Russia. Energia is cancelled and his components have been moved to other projects. The N-1 project existence has been negated until the fall of the Soviet Union, and is certainly not going to be reconsidered in the future. The new russian generation of rockets, like Angara, will rely on a multi-core design, like the Delta4H, and is probably not going to fully replace the Proton-M before a long time.

Also, in 2010, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Proton_launches"]13 Proton rockets were launched[/ame]. There should be 13 others in 2011. 4 launches, (only 3 the same month) are not such a big deal. The Proton-M and the Soyuz rockets are amongst the most cost-efficient all around the world.

The cost of a Proton launch is estimated to 85M$. The cost of a Soyuz launch is estimated to 37.5M$ (see this .pdf)

We have then 85*4 + 37.5 = 377.5

The Lunar Landing launch costs would be around 400M$. A single Shuttle launch costs 300M$, a Delta 4H more than 200M$ the unit.

So I think there is no way to do a lot better.

 

[N_Molson]

Worked on an hybridation of my meshes and Thorton's ones :

This is only one vessel, in Orbiter terms. There will be a command to "separate & spawn" the DM stage. It solves the stack-docking attachments/docking ports problem.

Of course there will be the limited number of restarts and the ullage burns as in Thornton's original DM tug.

The RCS system will be more complex, as it will link the tug and the Lander (make me think to model a cable between them).

 

[N_Molson]

I got a decent pitch/yaw control using only the thrusters on the top of Lander.

I had to use ShiftCG so I have to delete thrusters groups and redefine everything, that's not fun...

The linear attitude control will require the use of the tug RCS, now coding that part...

 

[boby_nadeau]

So, if I understand, there will be :
- The Lunar Lander launch from baikonur with the Proton launcher,
- The Soyuz TMA launch from baikonur

- They will dock ... and after, what happen ? :O

 

[N_Molson]

See post #187

 

[N_Molson]

As a test, I docked the LM-BlockDM stack to the ISS using the scenario editor, then undocked, went back for about 50 meters, and tried to dock again. I succeeded, but it took me 30 minutes and 75% of the LM RCS fuel. Wow, I have to optimize the stack RCS program !! :lol: Also there were a couple of headbanging axis inversions. But it works, I'm on the good way.

Edit : Controls axis & camera tilt fixed, now it's almost a piece of cake !

---------- Post added 06-24-11 at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-23-11 at 10:42 PM ----------

Putting all the pieces back together...

Notice that the landing gear is slightly off... This fixes itself when you exit and reload... I think it has to do with the scaling animations used, known to be "mathematically unstable".

 

[SiberianTiger]

Hi N_Molson, can any beta be downloaded? I'm a bit lost in this thread...

Especially I'm interested is whether you made available a dockable block DM for TMA to make a Lunar pass.

Just a little public advertisement campaign going here.

 

[N_Molson]

Aww, yes, I should really get back to work on this one, it looked pretty on that pic ... If anyone wants to contribute to this addon (mostly code), I'll accept happily, as I have quite a lot of things to deal with ! :tiphat:

Also, the problem is that Thorton's (standard) TMA doesn't survive to a lunar re-entry (which is realistic), so I guess I'm more or less waiting a TMA-L with improved shield and some tweaks (thicker shield means more mass, so savings would have to be done elsewhere, because the mass budget is real tight).

But yes, really, I should get back to that one. :yes:

OK, so I promise an update, even minor, for Tuesday 23:59:59 UTC. :hail:

*reviewing the code* hey, I put quite a lot of work on that one