Question Question to Guitarists-Orbinauts

[N_Molson]

Hello,

I found that music sheet of one of the most popular russian songs from the WWII. The famous short-range missle "Stalin's Organs" was named after it (Katyusha/катюша = "little Catherine").

Their is a part where I don't get the logic beyond the chords though :

Des - As - F7 - Bm (line 3 and 5)

I never saw the "es" or "s" chord suffixes before, could that be a russian particularity ? I can't find nothing in "D" or "A" that sounds right. Of course, I dont forget the flats, but still, I can't figure...

Any idea ?

 

[Mister Mxyzptlk]

In measures 17 and 18 the triad of notes under the Des and As respectively are inversions of the chords D flat major and A flat major. Does this help?

 

[tomthenose]

i haven't seen that notation either, i suppose it could stand for a 'sus' (suspended) chord so you could try some of them but then i'm not sure what the 'es' would be in relation to that.

 

[Loru]

Des = C#

As = G#

F7=

    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10
E |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
H |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
G |---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
D |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
A |---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
E |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10
E |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
H |---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---
G |---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
D |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
A |---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
E |-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---

    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10
E |---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---
H |---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---
G |---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---
D |---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
A |---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---
E |---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---

    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10
E |---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---
H |---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---
G |---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---
D |---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---
A |---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---
E |---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---|---|---|---

    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10
E |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---
H |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-
G |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---
D |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-
A |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---
E |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-O-|---|---

 

[Urwumpe]

Des and As are common in German, it just means "One half-tone less than D" or "one half tone lower than A" = D flat and A flat.

And in terms of chords: D-flat major, A-flat major.

Possible that Russian composers also used German style notation as reference like so many things imported aside of princesses.

The key of the song is A-flat major BTW.

 

[C3PO]

Des and As are common in German, it just means "One half-tone less than D" or "one half tone lower than A" = D flat and A flat.

And in terms of chords: D-flat major, A-flat major.

Possible that Russian composers also used German style notation as reference like so many things imported aside of princesses.

The key of the song is A-flat major BTW.

Denmark (Faroe islands included) uses the same notation.

 

[N_Molson]

Interesting. Anyway here we officially use the latin system Do-Ré-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si which forces us to mentally "translate" the A-B-C-D-E-F-G system. And we use the "# - b" system for flat notes/chords. So something we mix differents systems, which can seem a bit messy.

So I should read it Db (or C#) and Ab (or G#), thanks. :tiphat:

 

[orb]

So I should read it Db (or C#) and Ab (or G#), thanks. :tiphat:

And if you see H, read is as B.

 

[Urwumpe]

And if you see H, read is as B.

Actually it is NOT that easy. :lol:

German H is B.
German B is Bb or A♯

That is why we can play BACH (Or: Bb A C B).

 

[N_Molson]

I knew that Germans had a "special H letter", thanks for the precisions

Made катюша sound right, nice song.

 

[sitha241]

Thanks urwumpe that was confusing me for years :tiphat:

 

[C3PO]

I looked at the sheet again and realized I know this song.

 

[SolarLiner]

Anyway here we officially use the latin system Do-Ré-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si which forces us to mentally "translate" the A-B-C-D-E-F-G system.

Actually, Do-Ré-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si is respectively C-D-E-F-G-A-B.

 

[Mister Mxyzptlk]

Actually it is: tonic,full step,full step,half step,full step,full step,full step.

 

[jedidia]

-es suffix means flat, plain and simple.

Des = C#

As = G#

No. Nonononono. My harmonics teacher used to rip my guts out for stuff like that, and with good reason. It's D-flat and A-flat, and while they might physically be the same note as C-sharp and G-sharp, you've got to keep scale coherence or whoever has to play the thing will kill you in the most gruesome way he can come up with.

Seeing a D-flat in an A-flat scale is very much expected. Stumbling over a C-sharp in the same scale makes for a major WTF moment.

Actually, Do-Ré-Mi-Fa-Sol-La-Si is respectively C-D-E-F-G-A-B.

Do-re-me-etc. is simply the major scale (actually the ionic modus of THE scale, which we came to call the major scale because of its major third), no matter at which note you start. The origin of our notal system is actually A-minor, because then suddenly the notes are listed alphabetically *gasp*, and A 440 kHz is still the referece note to which any and all intervals relate.
The fact that europeans have that uggly H thrown in seems most probably due to a transcription error by someone somewhere that didn't make it outside the continent. It's very annoying.

Do-Re-Me-etc. is a really useful tool to flip through the modi quickly. For example, if you sing it starting at La, you'll automatically sing a minor scale, which was mentioned by N-Molson (he was half-right... if you start singing at La, you can sing ABCDEFG. Or any minor scale starting at any other note, relly).

I hope nobody minds me posting here, since the thread was meant for guitarists... I'm a drummer.

The key of the song is A-flat major BTW.

Judging by the sheet it looks more like F-minor to me.

 

[Urwumpe]

No. Nonononono. My harmonics teacher used to rip my guts out for stuff like that, and with good reason. It's D-flat and A-flat, and while they might physically be the same note as C-sharp and G-sharp, you've got to keep scale coherence or whoever has to play the thing will kill you in the most gruesome way he can come up with.

Seeing a D-flat in an A-flat scale is very much expected. Stumbling over a C-sharp in the same scale makes for a major WTF moment.

In harmonics yes. A C# chord is not the same as a Db chord, even if generally similar.

 

[Loru]

Hmm - I've just posted my quick chord reference. It might have been oversimplification here and I don't have formal music training (I'm just playing guitar) but I've checked those chords with the song they've been spot on for my ear.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

Yes - from the formal POV I was wrong. But if it fits and works?? Also I've checked single chords there in my ref chart. I didn't mean they're equal inside particular scale

 

[C3PO]

I really like the scales that are used in the intro, so I had a stab at it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Katyusha
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTRO:
   Fm      C7     F7        B      Bm       Fm      Cm        Fm
e|-------|-------|---------|------|------6-|-------|---------|--------|
B|-9---6-|-8---5-|-7-7-6---|---6--|--------|-9---6-|-------9-|-6------|
G|-------|-------|-------8-|-7----|---6----|-------|-8-6\5---|--------|
D|-------|-------|---------|------|--------|-------|---------|--------|
A|-------|-------|---------|------|--------|-------|---------|--------|
E|-------|-------|---------|------|--------|-------|---------|--------|
| /  slide up
| \  slide down
| h  hammer-on
| p  pull-off
| pb pre bend
| ld let down
| ~  vibrato
| +  harmonic
| x  Mute note
===============================================================================

Enjoy.