Patriotism

Master of Blades

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I have always found it difficult to understand the concept of patriotism, as I understand it, patriotism is to be proud of and love "your" country. What is there to love about a country? It's just a bunch of people ruling you.

What do you people think about patriotism?
 

ar81

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Downsizing is not patriotism.

People get food with money.
People get money with jobs.
Downsizing means less fellow citizens having food on the table.
It amazes me how much people talk about patriotism as fighting a war and save the man next to them, and when they work in a company they fire fellow citizens, sending them into poverty and uncertainty (the equivalent of a submarine captain sending crew men into the wild seas to save his neck).

To me it looks like when it is about money, money and company profit prevails on top of patriotism.
This world crisis is interesting to me, as it will show me who are patriots, and who are servants of profit.
When having to choose between patriotism towards your country or patriotism towards your company, our society encourages us to prefer patriotism towards company.

I do not consider myself a patriot, unless my country is planet Earth.
If it was up to me, instead of firing people, I would call employees and I would try to be a captain "we have an expected decrease in profit of $..... so it means we need each employee to help selling our products for an equivalent percapita of $...".

The concept of country is in my opinion an extension of tribe.
According to genographic project, 60,000 years ago all humans belong to a single tribe in Africa.
So to me, races are merely mutations to adapt to environmental conditions and it also means that I should be a patriot towards humanity.
Unfortunately, politicians invented geographic tribes, so you my have a brother who belongs to a different tribe (born in a different country). So the concept of family is not applicable anymore, specially when you have immigrants and descendants of immigrants.

In a war between countries, you could have 2 brothers who were born in different countries, fighting each other as enemies if both enlisted in their own armies. So what is patriotism, if you have to kill your brother and/or your family to "protect" your "nation"? Since there is an invader and invaded, the invader will claim that invasion was preemptive strike, and invaded will claim that they suffered an infamous attack. That's the theatrics of politics.

By the year 250 AC instead of a country called "China" you had the kingdoms of Wu, Shu and Wei, 50 years ago yu already had something similar to China. Those who fought for those kingdoms were fighting and dying for a nation that would not last even 1000 years. What a silly way to die...
 

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A patriot loves his country. A nationalist hates the countries of other people.

I can't say that I love my country... but I really like it. Having seen other countries, I learned why. It is boring, bureaucratic, cold and crowded. But it is cleaner as other countries, is less commercial as other countries, has generally good cuisine and a history you can talk about without skipping centuries. We have big problems here in our eyes, but you can bet, any country on this planet would like to exchange their problems with ours. We have friendly neighbors around us, and no dictator in the world would bomb us, as we build his cars.

And you don't need to testify every 30 seconds how much you love your country here. ;)
 

ar81

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Countries change boundaries in time.
So one day you belong to a country, some other day you belong to another.

In 500 years we do not know what will happen. You do not know what country you or your sons will belong to.
I do not know if my country will exist in the future, or if it will become the capital of the world in the future. What is certain is that I do not want to fight a "patriotic war" against those who could be good neighbors and friends.
 
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Urwumpe

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Please. Instead of writing down all stuff in the sequence how it crosses your mind, take some time to think about the logic behind your own arguments.

They only make sense, when you ignore aspects like education - are Chinese workers similar well trained as US citizens? Really? The taxes you pay, are for infrastructure. Another advantage, which is often ignored by bad economists.

They had shown a documentary yesterday, about the Meyer ship wharf in Papenburg, Germany. There are only 4 wharfs in the world, all of them in Europe, which are able to build large cruise ships. The documentary also said the difference between Southeast Asian wharfs and European Wharfs: If you only want the wharf to weld steel together (simple low-tech freighters) the Asians will be as good as you can be, and much cheaper. But when you want a ship with perfect quality, state of the art technology and that with punctual delivery, you can't get around a European wharf.

And a ship is today, no longer the just the welds. A cruise ships need specialists for many tasks, which Asia still does not have. And in fact, even Asia imports. When a theater has to be build in Asia, you can be sure that you will have often a European company doing the important work.

The differences may not be visible, when you only look at the salary of a single worker - but when you know, that a Asian worker requires an engineer to instruct and supervise him, if you want him to do a special kind of weld, because he never learned how to read technical drawings or operate special equipment, you suddenly need 15 Asian workers, to do the work of a single US worker.

And when you have stricter quality standards, these Asian workers might also need much more time and material, because they need to rework their product more often until it passes the review.

That is also the aspect which will slow for example Chinas space program down for a while. They have over one billion citizens, but less trained workers and engineers as a tiny country like Germany. And their R&D staff is constantly lacking engineers - in all kinds of companies. China is big, and needs more - but the rather neofeudal system in China makes it hard to get enough.
 

Master of Blades

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Countries change boundaries in time.
So one day you belong to a country, some other day you belong to another.

In 500 years we do not know what will happen. You do not know what country you or your sons will belong to.
I do not know if my country will exist in the future, or if it will become the capital of the world in the future. What is certain is that I do not want to fight a "patriotic war" against those who could be good neighbors and friends.

And this is exactly why I can not understand patriotism. Countries are but a social construct, the majority of them starting out with someone opressing someone else. Countries ultimately segregate the world, people do not think of someone as "human" they think of them as "American" "Swedish" "German" "Russian" "Spanish" or whatever.

I've always seen patriotism as the belief that "my country is better than yours" or rather "since I'm from this country, and you're not, I'm better than you". But perhaps I'm confusing it with nationalism?
 

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There is nothing wrong with patriotism. I love my country and I'm not ashamed to show my flag. A lot of Germans don't want to do so or just can't do so which I never understood. Some Germans even feel ashamed for others, especially Americans, who publicly love their country very much. And also, a lot of Germans have a problem with the word "pride" on the whole. In my point of view this is a part of some Germans mentality (which can be often compared to an inhibited steadily captious old man).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,411948,00.html
 

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Patriotism is loving your country but only to an extent that is healthy. I cant speak for other countries, America is supposed to be about freedom and equality something I think we really lack as much as we want to think otherwise.
Patriotism doesnt mean hating other nations or cultures. American patriots should strive to fulfill the constitution and what it really means. Not the corporate machine that we have. Loyalty is not to a party or even an idealology it is to no one but yourself. This doesnt mean be selfish or only do what works for you.
American Patriotism is supposed to mean doing what is right because it is right. It should be unbiased in every aspect. But what things should be and what things are can be two very different states of being. What is right for the people not the power.
 

Urwumpe

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The main problem with that attitude is: How can you be proud of something, you have not done yourself or where you have not contributed to the success?
 

Missioncmdr

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I've always seen patriotism as the belief that "my country is better than yours" or rather "since I'm from this country, and you're not, I'm better than you". But perhaps I'm confusing it with nationalism?

No, I call those people a*****es. I love my country (and state) but that does not mean I pride myself in having some sort of superiority complex. I find it offensive at times when people are into country bashing (whether it be against mine or others). Anyone who has spent more than 10 minutes on YouTube probably has seen this.

I guess it is important to be aware of just what a country is. One might set that it is just a piece of land under the jurisdiction of a government. But I have come to realize it is a lot more than that. A country also consisits of a culture such as the language(s) we speak, televisions shows and movies we watch, music we listen to, history, and so on.

And this is exactly why I can not understand patriotism. Countries are but a social construct, the majority of them starting out with someone opressing someone else. Countries ultimately segregate the world, people do not think of someone as "human" they think of them as "American" "Swedish" "German" "Russian" "Spanish" or whatever.

You may have a point. There was another forum that I used to hang out on. Unfortunately, too many members seemed intent on treating each other like crap based on their nationalities (Americans, Canadians, and Britons seemed to be the most common targets), which is one of the reasons I left. Fortunately, on a forum like this, that does not happen.

As I see it, people should more often use terms like "American" or "Russian" to help define their cultural background rather than to make themselves feel superior or to demean others.


-----Posted Added-----


The main problem with that attitude is: How can you be proud of something, you have not done yourself or where you have not contributed to the success?

I pay taxes; I contribute. 'Nuff said. ;)
 
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pattersoncr

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The main problem with that attitude is: How can you be proud of something, you have not done yourself or where you have not contributed to the success?

Your first post in this thread implied a certain degree of pride in the German auto industry. Do you work in the auto industry or are you just taking pride in something you did not contribute to?

There's nothing wrong with taking pride in the accomplishments of your countrymen. I'm sure that if you were world famous for doing something spectacular, many Germans would be proud of you.
 

Urwumpe

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Your first post in this thread implied a certain degree of pride in the German auto industry. Do you work in the auto industry or are you just taking pride in something you did not contribute to?

I actually take pride in avoiding working for the auto industry, though I am born in Wolfsburg. ;) (It is there pretty much like Detriot. If you don't work for a car company, you work for a supplier, unless you go away.)
 

Master of Blades

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As I see it, people should more often use terms like "American" or "Russian" to help define their cultural background rather than to make themselves feel superior or to demean others.

Making people feel superior or not, people tend to label themselves, and others. For example, in Sweden, it's common knowledge that Somalians start and work in pizzerias, that Poles (polish people) all work in the cleaning buisness. Now this is obviously predjudice, but I think predjudice wouldn't be as common, if we all stop seeing ourselves as "countymen" and more like just human.
 

jedidia

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a tiny country like Germany

tiny, ey? now you got me REALLY depressed! :(

Anyways, I consider Patriotism generally a good thing. A country cannot do without it. It start to become a problem when the love to your country makes you think it is superior to others. Love in general comes with glasses, through which some things look a bit different, but as it is in marriage, so it is in patriotism: Don't let it fool you too much! There might be a rough awakening!
 

Urwumpe

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tiny, ey? now you got me REALLY depressed! :(

Don't worry, when rolled out flat, Switzerland is sure bigger as China - it is just a bit too vertical. ;)
 
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