News Osama Bin Laden Killed (American politics discussion)

MeDiCS said:
Would it be accurate for anyone to take a group of radical christians and infer that christians are evil because that group doesn't get along with muslims/atheists/black people/communists/japanese/jews/<insert group name>?
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Actual, real Muslims get along fine with Christians and Jews. Its the big crowd of Muslims-by-the-name-only which is causing trouble. All religions that have Adam and Eve as beginning of humanity are considered "misguided relatives" by the Quoran.

It is just that it doesn't matter, what is standing in the Quoran, because only very few actually read it.

What is a real big problem even for pretty tolerant Muslims, are atheists.
 
Tommy said:
Capturing would have been better, but either way this will spawn attacks against the US. It comes down to "6 of one, or a half dozen of the other".

A live capture would have been much better for propaganda purposes, the trial would have provided a period in which Osama's twisted version of Islam could have been debunked. It already is being debunked by a few Islamic TV stations and newspapers - but the trial would have made it more interesting and increased the audience.

While killing him made him a martyr, that would have been the case even had he been tried and convicted before being executed (or even just imprisoned for life). As long as he remained free, he was useful for propaganda - the fact that Osama was able to evade capture "proved" that Allah was on his side - as well as making the US look incompetent.

What concerns me the most about this in the potential "fallout" regarding Pakistan. It's extremely hard to believe that at least some high ranking politicians and/or military officers didn't know he was there. This is tricky, if we officially accuse Pakistan of harboring Osama we will make bigger enemies of a country with a nuclear arsenal. If we don't, we demonstrate a lack of courage and conviction to our principles. It's a no-win situation for us.
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Well what is the worst Pakistan could do... Launch a missile a few miles only to have it to crash into India...
 
Im not sure India would be happy about it. Or the people who get the fallout from it. And India has nukes of its own, don't forget that. And lots o smart people :lol:
 
Well what is the worst Pakistan could do... Launch a missile a few miles only to have it to crash into India...
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They could "donate" a warhead and support for a terrorist organization to smuggle into the US. They could donate highly radioactive material for a dirty bomb.

A U-Haul can deliver a warhead - no expensive missile needed.
 
With this it is time for 9-11 to go into the history books and end the constant mention of "9-11 survivors" and other things politicians push. For me It is now the same as Pearl Harbor as far as historical significance. A day to remember and that is it.

Sorry if that is a bit much but to be honest I am sick of hearing about a 9-11 family members new book or appearance on good morning America or some other money making operation. I guarantee that the parents of a child who died in a car crash are just as affected as any 9-11 family and have moved on without books or appearances.

It is over. Time to move on.
 
Zachstar said:
I guarantee that the parents of a child who died in a car crash are just as affected as any 9-11 family and have moved on without books or appearances.
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There are plenty of people who have had family members die in car crashes that have written books and made appearances. They just don't get as much publicity because no car crash affects 3000 families all at once.
 
Linguofreak said:
There are plenty of people who have had family members die in car crashes that have written books and made appearances. They just don't get as much publicity because no car crash affects 3000 families all at once.
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Still, alone the deaths by land mines easily reach 3000 families per month (even shorter, but that becomes mathematical), without people really caring. If they would show it just as psychologically branding as 9/11 in TV, the reaction would likely be "Oh, switch the channel. There can't be so many stupid ways to die by a mine."

Its "just" 3000 people. In a few hours, sure. We Germans had at least 9000 people dying on the Gustloff in less than one hour, and 20,000-50,000 people in a single night during some storm floods at the North Sea.

The British lost almost 3000 people on all battlecruisers alone that the German Imperial Navy sank during the Battle of Jutland. 59,000 people died in 1959 in Tibet during the hostile take-over by China. 40,000 people died in the first seconds after the bomb of Hiroshima exploded. Up to 166,000 all together by it.

Historically, 9/11 is just the deadliest single act of terrorism. Which, isn't really a surprise, since it hit you at places with around 20,000 people per square kilometer. You can't even imagine how luckily you really are. The damage could have been higher if Al-Quaida had known that the WTC could collapse - they expected it only to burn. A few hours later and a few stories lower, and you could easily have had twice or three times as many people dead. Imagine instead of the Pentagon, the Empire State Building would have been hit. It could all have been so much worse.

Don't fall prone to the accidental hubris that a single US death is worse than thousands of other deaths in the world.

Also, get a bit more silent about the 3000 families that lost somebody, or thousands of more people who lost a friend there. In history, that had been battles in which statistically every second family of a country lost somebody in a single battle. Can you even imagine what impact such events have on the people? Especially if the dead are not pretty fairly mixed, like in 9/11, but actually mostly those people who put the food on the table? The losses of the 30 years war in Germany had been much amplified by this lack of skilled workers and farmers, and the destruction of infrastructure. You just lost a few office buildings out of many.
 
I personally cant understand them... THey claim to reject all western ways but they:
Use guns(A western invention)
Internet(A western invention)
Radio Tech(A western invention)
Computers(A western invention)
Dynamite and other high powered explosives(A western invention)
Underwear(A possible western invention)
Drive Cars(A western invention)
Play music(Mostly Western)
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*sigh*

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I feel like a little education is in order here, not only concerning this comment, but some others too.

First, Al-qaida mostly followes Wahabite teachings, or closely related. Wahabites are an extremist muslim sect, that happened to have the fortune of becoming state religion of Saudi Arabia, who then found oil, and therewith a virtually unlimited supply of money. To put the problem in the right picture, imagine the most extreme chrstian sect you know of with their own state and unlimited funds. Yeah, I'm sure that wouldn't turn out any better.

Second, the founder of the sect, Ibn Wahab, fled to Arabia from regions of the Ottoman empire, to escape prosecution for heresy. That's right, Wahabism was considered a heresy by the ottomans, and is still largely considered a heresy among the majority of muslim scholars. They just don't say it too loud, because the arm of Saudi Arabia reaches far... mostly with money (bribes), but also with political influence (which relies on more money).

It is therefore not surprising that, as has been mentioned in the thread, actually the most terror was and still is directed at other muslims. One of the main goals is to re-unite Islamic nations into a single empire, founding a new caliphate. Indeed, back in the olden days where Saudi Arabia was still a desert with people practicing a nomadic lifestyle, aforementioned founder of the sect promised to tribe leader Saud (of the tribe of the Saudi, that's why it's called Saudi-Arabia nowadays, btw) and his decendants the everlasting caliphate if they supported him and his teachings.
It is therefore not astonishing that indeed the major targets of terror are other muslims. The West has only seen some minor incidents compared with the frequency of mosque-bombings in Iraq and Afganistan, with the notable exception of 9/11.

Now, as for the posting I quoted above: you don't understand Wahabi teaching one bit. Wahabi teaching founds on one major axiom, and another one derived from that:
That the Qur'an is the *eternally, universally valid*, literal word of god. Now, most muslims would actually agree to this, but here comes the catch as to how you define eternally valid and literal. Wahab basically took it to mean universally valid, as to every piece of it in every situation. Wahabism doesn't do hermeneutics. You may apply ANY scripture to ANY situation. Of course that would wreak major havoc with any kind of sistematic theology, so they basically reduced to applying any scripture to any situation unless they say no.

Comming from this is the second major axiom, declaring that ALL truth is contained in the Qur'an. They even go as far as to claim that principles of quantum mechanics, nuclear physics and all human inventions are described in the Qur'an, you just have to find them. As such, the argument that they may not use western technology is not valid to them. From their point of view, they may use whatever means are not explicitly forbidden, because everything is described somewhere in the Qur'an. This way they went from ultra-literal exogesis to completely willfull endogesis pretty fast (allthough the two of them are generally not far apart, be it in muslim or christian theology).

So yes, we got a problem there. Islam has the biggest problem there of all the world religions, actually. But I'm still convinced that the tides will turn and Islam will get back to a prospering culture like they had during most of the middle ages, where the west was mostly moaning and bullying around in stagnation and had a lot less religious freedom than the muslim empires. Do never forgett history when comparing east to west culturally, morally and technologically.

To give a few examples directly related to the post above:

-There are accounts from the christian defenders of Jerusalem talking about "the fires of hell" being unleashed uppon them by the besieging muslim army, with "demonic roars and noises". It is therefore probable that the attacking army used guns... before the christians knew what gunpowder was.

- Computers use algorithms. algorithms are named after their inventor, al-quarizam. I think that's enough said.

- The western stagnation was majorly turned by sciences based on the greek ones. The Works of Aristotle, Sokrates and Plato most notably. These were brought to western europe by the muslims, mostly via spain.

The wheel of history is ever turning, and we should not forgett that we are at the height at the moment, and won't be there forever. Islam isn't worse off than christianity was during the dark ages, people just didn't have any high-grade explosives around back then ( a western invention indeed...). And in another 500 years, who knows how many muslim governaments will be moaning about christian terrorists? With dominionism theology clawing its way into mainstream evangelical churches, we certainly have a good basis for it...
 
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Hillary has just confirmed the reward has been removed.
 
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jedidia said:
*sigh*
They just don't say it too loud, because the arm of Saudi Arabia reaches far... mostly with money (bribes), but also with political influence (which relies on more money).
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And mosques. The Sauds are one of the biggest "donors", when it comes to build mosques in other countries, and at least in Germany, are watched with a lot of suspicion, as their business habits border on organized crime. Of course, the Wahabitian mosques are also stronger recruitment centers for Al-Quaida as for example the Ditib founded mosques (which is actually the Turkish government)... the biggest danger for Germany though, are Salafist sects, their terror groups are not that focused on the USA as Al-Quaida.
 
And mosques.
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How could I forgett, they just opened the biggest Mosque in Travnik a few months ago (and Travnik already has about 16 others. Mosque donations to Travnik are kind of a trend for muslim celebrities, it seems). Everyone, including the Muslims, are complaining why they didn't build a factory instead...
 
jedidia said:
How could I forgett, they just opened the biggest Mosque in Travnik a few months ago (and Travnik already has about 16 others. Mosque donations to Travnik are kind of a trend for muslim celebrities, it seems). Everyone, including the Muslims, are complaining why they didn't build a factory instead...
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Now they can pray to Allah for work... isn't that good? :lol:
 
Urwumpe said:
Good that it was already known that this was meant to be a kill mission and not an attempt to arrest him and bring him to justice. Otherwise the question would be, which idiot let such soldiers become special forces, that panic when an unarmed old man resists "arrest".

It was an execution, not less.
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I don't agree with it being a kill mission, but I don't have whatever information the mission planners may/may not have had access to (source on kill mission here, btw). That said, we have no idea what bin Laden was doing at the point when he was killed, and from what we know I don't think it's fair to say it was an execution.
 
BBC said:
Bin Laden himself then resisted the troops and was shot dead, but was not armed, he added.
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Wow... how did he "resist" them? Maybe he made a rude hand gesture? :dry:
 
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