News Osama Bin Laden Killed (American politics discussion)

[T.Neo]

Were I female, I wouldn't want to be called his wife after being used as a meat shield.

Sadly this "meat shield" had no choice, as she was killed. :dry:

 

[Eli13]

Well either way. I bet she wasn't to happy when she got grabbed. Well lets face none of us would.

 

[Dambuster]

I'm sure that it would have been nice to some to see him paraded around and brought before a tribunal. But to those of us who lost a Friend, Husband, Wife or other close relative, no amount of parading him around would bring any comfort. Death however brings closure.
I got a call last night from one such family and we cried a recalled and felt a sense of relief and Yes, PERSONAL closure.
Untill you have a personal stake it's hard to grasp the relief felt at the news of his death.
Dead is DEAD! Done, finished, no coming back! FINAL... we will deal with whomever wants to take his place when the time comes.
For now I know one NYPD Officer's family who can sleep peacefully tonight. I know I will too!

I understand what you mean, but disagree with it. Justice needs to come above personal feelings or preferences, whatever the situation. If justice doesn't come first, then what the hell is the point of the 'war on terror'?

 

[Ark]

Please forgive the cynicism of my comments. I do love this country dearly, but over the last decade or so I've become incredibly pessimistic about our future, and totally disillussioned with the US political system as an entity capable of doing anything other than lie, cheat, or steal in order to protect its increasingly bloated fat arse, both domestically and internationally.

Some food for thought:

Usama bin Laden organized, with others, al-Qaeda in 1988 following the Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan. From then until now, how many killed Westerners do you suppose bin Laden and al-Qaeda are directly responsible for? 3000 on 9/11, plus say 500 more? The numbers are obviously not well known, so let's double that 7000. 7000 deaths in 23 years. That's 300 a year on average.

Which is WAY less than the number of people killed by cancer a year. Or by starvation. Or heart attack, or AIDS, traffic accidents involving drunk drivers, drug overdoses, treatable ailments not covered by health insurance, etc etc.

And how many soldiers, US, Iraqi, Afghan and others, had to die in this "War on Terror"? How many civilian casualties? How much money spent in 2 wars? How many freedoms and personal civil liberties were lost, reduced or flat-out done away with for the American populace? And worse, how many have been given back to us under the current administration?

I am NOT trying to trivialize 9/11. I lost friends in NYC too, and it was indeed a great tragedy. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

And does killing the great, bad Islamic Boogie Man change anything? At all? Will due process be allowed now to all the suspects being held at Gitmo? Will the right of Habeas Corpus be returned to US citizens? Will anybody is New York actually feel fundamentally safer than they did yesterday?

My point is that some of the celebrations I've seen seems really misguided. We're still in a "war" which has no resolution, and in fact is a self-perpetuating loop based on mistrust, misunderstanding, ignorance and fear. Better luck fighting smoke. We've still subjugated our rights in the name of this "war", and what's more, we WILLINGLY let that happen and have yet to demand their return. This whole affair, the last 10 years, is not a victory for democracy, its a eulogy.

I agree with a lot of this. The fact is that over the past decade of warfare "justified" by 9/11, we've directly caused the deaths of what, at least 50 innocent Afghans and Iraqis? Is that enough revenge for us? Hasn't enough innocent blood been spilled between those two countries to avenge the 9/11 victims?

It's good that he's dead, but it's a decade late. Had we done our jobs and killed him in '01, we could have packed up and left Afghanistan before the gross mismanagement and diverting of resources to Iraq turned it into the endless occupation that it is now. Hundreds of thousands of people could still be alive. Seeing Bin Laden at the bottom of the ocean doesn't bring a single one of them back, and doesn't undo any of what's happened.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well either way. I bet she wasn't to happy when she got grabbed. Well lets face none of us would.

Who said that she was grabbed and Bin Laden been hiding behind her?

So far, the only known information, that is more than just legend-building by one side, is that he, his son, a not further identified woman and two couriers had been killed.

 

[N_Molson]

I've heard explicitely that it was one of Obama's gunmen that used the woman as a shield. At this point the SEALS could not do anything else.

 

[Ark]

I've heard explicitely that it was one of Obama's gunmen that used the woman as a shield. At this point the SEALS could not do anything else.

Obama has gunmen? How did one of them get there? :lol:

You and Fox News both, mate. :facepalm:

 

[T.Neo]

I don't know... would a SEAL seriously think that someone like Osama would care enough for some woman to worry about her being used as a human shield?

 

[Eli13]

I've heard explicitely that it was one of Obama's gunmen that used the woman as a shield. At this point the SEALS could not do anything else.

Thanks for saying that for me. I don't know who grabbed here, I don't think we should dwell upon it either. Either way she is dead and was used as a shield. Either way osama got it in the head, twice.

Thanks SEAL team 6.

 

[Urwumpe]

I've heard explicitely that it was one of Obama's gunmen that used the woman as a shield. At this point the SEALS could not do anything else.

I have read it only here, all more careful media channels don't go into the details of the operation. What can't be verified isn't reported.

 

[Dambuster]

In order to defeat it, you need to know what Al-Queda is in the first place. It is a Ideology that anyone that is not Muslim should be killed (And they get a virgin in heaven). you need to stop it a certain way.

Basically you need to tell them that they were lied to and that their god does not like it. They will therefore back off.

Dont forget. Pakistan also was taking part in the Anti-terrorist movement with the US at the moment. I think there will be political fire over that.

Just to say, Muslims are not exempt from being targets of Al Qaeda. I've forgotten the specifics of it, but a book I read a few months ago called 'The Looming Tower' (an excellent read, btw) essentially said that virtually all people do not follow their interpretation of how the world should be, and are therefore valid targets.


And the whole bit about virgins is pretty much BS, btw. This quote from Wikipedia sums the matter up pretty well:

Margaret Nydell states that mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds.

That said, I agree with what you say about re-educating these people. I think that that's definitely the right way to go about dealing with Al Qaeda.

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 PM ----------

I don't know... would a SEAL seriously think that someone like Osama would care enough for some woman to worry about her being used as a human shield?

I've heard that Osama had quite a large family, with whom he had a very good relationship. But then again, I would hardly expect soldiers to be considering that in such a situation, even if they did know about it.

 

[Izack]

And the whole bit about virgins is pretty much BS, btw. This quote from Wikipedia sums the matter up pretty well:

Not quite related, but that's a pretty unprofessional statement for Wikipedia. What page was it on? It should be flagged/edited.

 

[Dambuster]

Not quite related, but that's a pretty unprofessional statement for Wikipedia. What page was it on? It should be flagged/edited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#.2272_Virgins.22

 

[Solar424]

For all who believe that justice was not served, he said, on multiple occasions, that he masterminded the 9/11 attacks. This is a guilty plea in my books.
If he were to be tried in court, he would be charged with over 3,000 counts of murder or perpetrating murder. Even with a guilty plea, he would still likely receive the death penalty.

 

[Star Voyager]

I just heard this morning! Way to go Navy SEALS!

The Wicked Which of the Middle East is dead!

 

[Quick_Nick]

Not quite related, but that's a pretty unprofessional statement for Wikipedia. What page was it on? It should be flagged/edited.

Unprofessional maybe, but the "72 virgins" thing is still a myth and stereotype about Islamic extremists and their reasons for dying.

 

[Star Voyager]

 

[cymrych]

By that logic, considering things such as cancer or heart attacks cause more deaths per year than intentional homicide, murder should be ok?

Obviously not. I wasn't placing a value upon any calamady; any such attempt to quantify these ills of mankind with an arbitrary value system (ie X is worse than Y, which isn't half as bad as Z, etc) would only show my personal and sociocultural baises. I was merely attempting to illustrate how disproportionate the response to the "terrorist" threat is compared to other plagues of the world.

And please don't get me wrong; going after bin Laden was clearly a proper response. He was indeed a very dangerous and violent criminal, capable of doing great harm, and every attempt should have been made to make him stand trial for the crimes he was accused.

On the other hand, the US's methods were also violent and dangerous, granted, in a completely more palettable manner because we felt justified: in October '01, President Bush turned down an offer from the Taliban to turn over bin Laden provided the US stopped the bombing campaign and offer evidence of bin Laden's involvement in 9/11. W's response was :"There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty."

For a supposedly enlightened nation, where the rule of law reigns supreme over all men high and low equally, where any persons accused are afforded the right to face their accusers openly in a court of law before a jury of their peers, I found at the time and still find to this day the purely emotional response of the President and American people as a whole to be, well, scary. In my opinion, many orders of magnitude more frightening than any subsequent terror alert. That we could so quickly abandon our ideals, the foundational stones upon which were laid our very existence as a true democracy based on fundamental rights and liberties, in order to exact some revenge? What does that say about us?

My problem with the whole thing is not THAT we went after bin Laden and other jihadist groups, it is the manner in which we proceeded. In effect, we made ourselves out to be the biggest bully on the street, but we were still playing by bin Laden's rulebook, utilizing our own morally questionable techniques to gain an upper hand. We may justify to ourselves the actions of extremists, claiming them to be off their rocker or obsessive or what have you; but how do we justify OUR poor behavior to ourselves?

OK, admittedly emotional rant over. :embarrassed: Rants like these are exactly why I try to avoid politics in the forum world. Kind of hard with the headline today though.

 

[Eli13]

Well osama's gone. He's been buried at sea with full muslim tradition. Of course the reason why they did that is obvious. No shrine of any kind (or cloning for that matter ) and now more people are gonna get hammered tonight. :dry: it may be a victory in the eyes of many, but i really don't think we should celebrate just yet. The way I see it either Al Queda is broken up maybe fatally or it's just going to spur more violence. Most likely the second one, but thats nothing we hope for.

 

[Star Voyager]

I don't think al-Queda has the resources to do much, but then again we're talking about people who can afford an AK-47, but not shoes, and apparently have more wives than teeth.