News Osama Bin Laden Killed (American politics discussion)

So I just heard on the radio that the navy seals six team was supposed to repel by helicopter under pakistani air defenses into Osama's compound with the intentions on capturing him alive. When given the option to surrender he refused and was killed as a lady reportedly being of his family or wife was heard screaming "Osama"
 
I wonder if there ever would be video registrators on soldier helmets like we see in the movies.
Could solve a lot of newsmaking problems.
 
Speculations abound. Reuters claims there was no intention to capture ObL. Whichever way you put it, this man and his "black storks" were responsible for many deaths of Soviet servicemen back in the 1980s.
 
I wonder if there ever would be video registrators on soldier helmets like we see in the movies.

The technology already exists and is deployed in many applications, and you can buy commercially-available devices that can store up to 2 hours A/V in good quality (limits are usually tied to batteries, memory storage is now plentiful thanks to micro-SDHC cards). There are also "guncams" that are engaged by simply touching the trigger and will record what you're shooting at and the results of the shooting. So it's not a question of feasibility, really.
 
In order to defeat it, you need to know what Al-Queda is in the first place. It is a Ideology that anyone that is not Muslim should be killed (And they get a virgin in heaven). you need to stop it a certain way.

Basically you need to tell them that they were lied to and that their god does not like it. They will therefore back off.

Dont forget. Pakistan also was taking part in the Anti-terrorist movement with the US at the moment. I think there will be political fire over that.
 
I whish it was SpaceX or Sierra Nevada :hmm:
 
JEL: First of all, don't praise the Urwumpe before the end of the thread.

Second: He denied responsibility until 2004, when he took the responsibility for it for the first time. Since then, he no longer denied it. He also made a statement before 2001, about letting towers in the USA burn in response of towers burning in Lebanon.

#1: I'll take my chances on you ;) Statistics seem to speak in your favor.

#2: So perhaps he accidentally inspired someone? In your opinion, why do you think he denied responsibility until 2004, if he was calling for just such an action before it actually happened? Pure speculation on my part now, but imagine he called for the action, and then suddenly someone else does it, he denies because he didn't do it, then years later realize that he is elected scape-goat (perhaps because of his history against the soviets) and will never get fair treatment so decides that he might as well take credit for the action he's going to be blamed for anyway? A kind of "to heck with the truth, if they're going to blame me whatever I say I might as well get the credit for it so somebody takes revenge in the name of islam" Possible scenario? These questions might have been addressable had we been able to interview him and psych-profile him while in US custody had he been captured alive.



Speculations abound. Reuters claims there was no intention to capture ObL. Whichever way you put it, this man and his "black storks" were responsible for many deaths of Soviet servicemen back in the 1980s.

Once enemies, now friends :) :

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone[/ame] :
Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency program to arm, train, and finance the Afghan mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, 1979 to 1989. The program leaned heavily towards supporting militant Islamic groups that were favored by neighboring Pakistan, rather than other, less ideological Afghan resistance groups that had also been fighting the Marxist-oriented Democratic Republic of Afghanistan regime since before the Soviet intervention. [1] Operation Cyclone was one of the longest and most expensive covert CIA operations ever undertaken;[2] funding began with $20–30 million per year in 1980 and rose to $630 million per year in 1987.


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He's not even officially charged with the 911 attacks?? :

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden
 
Please forgive the cynicism of my comments. I do love this country dearly, but over the last decade or so I've become incredibly pessimistic about our future, and totally disillussioned with the US political system as an entity capable of doing anything other than lie, cheat, or steal in order to protect its increasingly bloated fat arse, both domestically and internationally.

Some food for thought:

Usama bin Laden organized, with others, al-Qaeda in 1988 following the Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan. From then until now, how many killed Westerners do you suppose bin Laden and al-Qaeda are directly responsible for? 3000 on 9/11, plus say 500 more? The numbers are obviously not well known, so let's double that 7000. 7000 deaths in 23 years. That's 300 a year on average.

Which is WAY less than the number of people killed by cancer a year. Or by starvation. Or heart attack, or AIDS, traffic accidents involving drunk drivers, drug overdoses, treatable ailments not covered by health insurance, etc etc.

And how many soldiers, US, Iraqi, Afghan and others, had to die in this "War on Terror"? How many civilian casualties? How much money spent in 2 wars? How many freedoms and personal civil liberties were lost, reduced or flat-out done away with for the American populace? And worse, how many have been given back to us under the current administration?

I am NOT trying to trivialize 9/11. I lost friends in NYC too, and it was indeed a great tragedy. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

And does killing the great, bad Islamic Boogie Man change anything? At all? Will due process be allowed now to all the suspects being held at Gitmo? Will the right of Habeas Corpus be returned to US citizens? Will anybody is New York actually feel fundamentally safer than they did yesterday?

My point is that some of the celebrations I've seen seems really misguided. We're still in a "war" which has no resolution, and in fact is a self-perpetuating loop based on mistrust, misunderstanding, ignorance and fear. Better luck fighting smoke. We've still subjugated our rights in the name of this "war", and what's more, we WILLINGLY let that happen and have yet to demand their return. This whole affair, the last 10 years, is not a victory for democracy, its a eulogy.
 
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In order to defeat it, you need to know what Al-Queda is in the first place. It is a Ideology that anyone that is not Muslim should be killed (And they get a virgin in heaven). you need to stop it a certain way.

Basically you need to tell them that they were lied to and that their god does not like it. They will therefore back off.

Dont forget. Pakistan also was taking part in the Anti-terrorist movement with the US at the moment. I think there will be political fire over that.

What is so special about a virgin??? Why do terrorist like virgins???
Are they that bad that they need virgins???
 
#2: So perhaps he accidentally inspired someone? In your opinion, why do you think he denied responsibility until 2004, if he was calling for just such an action before it actually happened? Pure speculation on my part now, but imagine he called for the action, and then suddenly someone else does it, he denies because he didn't do it, then years later realize that he is elected scape-goat (perhaps because of his history against the soviets) and will never get fair treatment so decides that he might as well take credit for the action he's going to be blamed for anyway? A kind of "to heck with the truth, if they're going to blame me whatever I say I might as well get the credit for it so somebody takes revenge in the name of islam" Possible scenario? These questions might have been addressable had we been able to interview him and psych-profile him while in US custody had he been captured alive.http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden

Well, lets remember that Al-Quaida was not just a terror organization, but always rather a terror franchise. There is no such thing as a normal chain of command.

Bin Laden was, in that organization, something like the mental leader, the strategic planner and political organizer. He had little to do with the actual operations, but a lot which operations had been supported and in which way the plans went. His own perspective literally defined what Al-Quaida was. Not just a Islamist terror group among many, but one that was especially against the USA, because of the USA tainting holy sites of Islam with their presence. That is 100% Bin Ladens view of the world.

There is no information exchange between the top and the bottom in a terror organization, as you have in an army. Things tickle down, one member only knows the next contacts around him.

So, how responsible is Bin Laden? He selected the targets, the training style, the organization of AQ and was sure responsible for equipping terrorist cells with financial support. He might not know if a cell was belonging to AQ or not, that executes an attack, but he must at least have known that his actions are likely responsible for it.

His messages never revealed anything solid, he was almost the Arabian Nostradamus.

But, my own theory is, why he never claimed to be responsible before 2004: He had awaken a sleeping dragon and anybody knew, that this dragon will hunt the responsible and his supporters. He kept his involvement silent for buying time to move away from Afghanistan, and spoke more freely about it, when he was safe in Pakistan. Contrary to his peers, Bin Laden had no contact to the outside world, that revealed his location, he operated extremely cautious. Who would have invited the one, who would make the USA invade a country only for getting him?

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What is so special about a virgin??? Why do terrorist like virgins???
Are they that bad that they need virgins???

If you are willed to bomb yourself into atoms, do you really think, you will be able to have a date without talking about suicide belts?
 
Well, Al Qaida is not a certain group on a certain place. It is a heterogenic network existing on different places. It is not just "one thing". In other words: the death of Bin Laden actually does mean nothing. It is just a media spectacle. This is neither the end of Al Qaida, nor the end of fanaticism, brainwash, and terrorism.

I am not sure how to think about his death. Should I be glad? For what? It is just another human who actually uselessly died caused by religious fanaticism. If I am glad, I am on the same evil side actually. And I don't want to be. No. I am not glad because of a death of any being. No matter who he/she was. I think we got past the Middle Ages. Although a lot of humans obviously are not.

The problem here is not a name or a person. The problem is much more complicated, and it won't be solved by killing certain persons. It can only be solved by enlightenment, education, and political and economical progress in certain regions and countries. Neither the USA, nor Europe will do this allone. Less than ever by additional violence and death.
 
@Urwumpe; Well, this would take the debate into a philosophical one, similar to those that discuss whether or not violent movies are responsible for violence in general, or whether or not Rush Limbaugh can be jailed for having said he wanted Assange assassinated, which I won't begin on here.
 
We're still in a "war" which has no resolution, and in fact is a self-perpetuating loop based on mistrust, misunderstanding, ignorance and fear. Better luck fighting smoke. We've still subjugated our rights in the name of this "war", and what's more, we WILLINGLY let that happen and have yet to demand their return. This whole affair, the last 10 years, is not a victory for democracy, its a eulogy.



The answers to the following questions seem eluding;


What is the path for de-escalation?

If not now, At what point, could\would victory be declared\achieved?

When will the Patriot Act no longer be needed?
 
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Which is WAY less than the number of people killed by cancer a year. Or by starvation. Or heart attack, or AIDS, traffic accidents involving drunk drivers, drug overdoses, treatable ailments not covered by health insurance, etc etc.

By that logic, considering things such as cancer or heart attacks cause more deaths per year than intentional homicide, murder should be ok?

That is not the point. This guy here, absolutely hates the US, hates western culture, hates essentially most things that give the (lucky parts) of the modern world their freedom. And he believes that murdering people to achieve his goals- as many people as necessary- is perfectly acceptable.

And that is not acceptable. Some guy can't go around killing people because he hates them for some absurd reason. It just can't be a part of humanity.

And all the other things people like bin Laden have caused? There are sure others- westerners are not the only people to die because of their actions, directly, and indirectly. How many children die in places like Afghanistan, because of the lack of proper social government has lead to a lack of many basic services? How many women have to be opressed, because of nonsensical social conservativism that should be long dead? It all adds up.

Now, I'm not vindicating the whole "war on terror" here. It may be a worthy cause, but unfortunately one that is executed extremely poorly.
 
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