News Osama Bin Laden Killed (American politics discussion)

T.Neo

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Well... that is good, I mean, good riddance to the guy, but... I agree with Urwumpe here, I would have really liked to see him being brought to justice. Or being fried alive, whichever came first.

Instead he's just killed... somewhere... buy a bunch of combatants... and then buried at sea. At least he's not in the Al Queda equation anymore, but the other factors are sadly still there...

The objective to find bin Laden- dead or alive- was finally fulfilled, after a decade and billions of dollars. Is it worth it? I don't know, but it is sure satisfying.

But the US predicament is not over. There are still many people who despise the western culture, the US military is locked into an unstable situation in Afghanistan, and there will be people who want to avenge bin Laden's death... one can only hope that it has the best possible outcome.

Still, I sense a wave of conspiracy theories coming... the whole thing is quite quick, yet they're so sure about it... are they going to release any images? Who can ensure they are authentic? Maybe it is just all photoshop... :shifty:

One question I have to ask, though, is why on Earth is this supposed to be an "American politics discussion"? I mean, sure, bin Laden played a very important role in recent US history, but people like him are not a threat to the US alone, nor is his death a matter solely of US politics.
 
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Artlav

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And they've already buried bin laden at sea
Is it me, or there is something fishy going on here?
So, the world and american voters are supposed to take this "success" on faith?

Although, what else could they have done? Stuff him and hang from the statue of liberty?
 

N_Molson

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It appears that he was killed by a commando of Navy SEALS, who have inhumated the body in the sea...

That seems very quick, and I'd like to have some proof...

Still, I sense a wave of conspiracy theories coming... the whole thing is quite quick, yet they're so sure about it... are they going to release any images? Who can ensure they are authentic? Maybe it is just all photoshop...

Without speaking of conspiracy, another source than the US Army, which isn't exactly neutral in that matter, would be welcome...
 
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garyw

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I would have preferred seeing Osama in front of a court, than just killing somebody somewhere in the middle of nowhere, when the next election knocks on the door, and say it was Bin Laden. Buried at sea? That is already one big deadly insult to Muslims, fundamentalist or not. They could have just cremated him, wouldn't have been less disrespecting.

I fully agree here. Whilst I know that Al'qadea have no respect for those they kill are we supposed to be better, aren't we supposed to be showing the world how it's done? The burial at sea will raise the ire of the Al'Qadea community and I fully expect revenge attacks.

They kill us, we kill them. They kill us in revenge, we step up the ante. The cycle of violence needs to stop somewhere. I've lived close to terrorism all my life as I grew up in London with the near constant fear of IRA attacks. I've seen the devestation of an IRA bomb.

How you deal with terrorism though I've no idea but there has to be something better than the ever increasing cycle of hatred and violence. :shrug:

EDIT TO ADD:

I've just been reading that Bin Laden might have been killed on Friday and the body buried earlier today after confirmation it was him. it's also been suggested that the timing of the press release was done to help improve Obamas ratings for some upcoming elections?
 
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Urwumpe

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What is pretty interesting about the political implications: The compound in which Bin laden was found, was also the home of many Pakistani generals.

Now, you can rightfully claim a lot of incompetence as general, that is why you are general, and have colonels, captains and, more important, sergeants to fix your shortcomings.

But going to work peacefully every day together with the most-wanted man of the world must be something so surreal, you could make an epic comedy of it.
 

T.Neo

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This site cites:

623. * If a person dies on a ship and if there is no fear of the decay of the dead body and if there is no problem in retaining it for sometime on the ship, it should be kept on it and buried in the ground after reaching the land. Otherwise, after giving Ghusl, Hunut, Kafan and Namaz-e-Mayyit it should be lowered into the sea in a vessel of clay or with a weight tied to its feet. And as far as possible it should not be lowered at a point where it is eaten up immediately by the sea predators.

624. If it is feared that an enemy may dig up the grave and exhume the dead body and amputate its ears or nose or other limbs, it should be lowered into sea, if possible, as stated in the foregoing rule.

From what I can make out, burial at sea is indeed acceptable in Islam, when there are no other options. Presumably the people who had custody of bin Laden's body deduced that there were no other options available (one official stated that finding a country willing to accept the remains of bin Laden would have been difficult) given the fact that Islam dictates burial shortly after death.
 

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It was time.
But is it? This is the 3°th time I hear about Bin Laden death. The only picture seen of the event seems a fake of 23 sept. 2006.
However, even if he's dead, it won't change anything. Virus is wide spread, and OBL is just another "martyr" to the thousands of suicide bombers and terrorist who will be proud to scream his name, just before making their "duties".
 

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According to Obama, the objective of the operation was to capture Ben Laden alive, but it seems that he tried to defend himself...

Edit : the picture of Ben Laden corpse has been certified as a fake...
 
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T.Neo

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Edit : the picture of Ben Laden corpse has been certified as a fake...

Which picture? The '06 picture orbekler is describing, or the pictures presumably taken of Osama now?
 

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Urwumpe

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JEL

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Nice find. :thumbup:

Right back at you for this one :thumbup: :

The guy who is responsible for the loss of the helicopter is here:

https://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual

Actually, he was the first to report of the attack without knowing it.

This is a bit confusing to me though. He talks about the helicopter crash happening within the last 12-14 hours, and the news say that DNA-tests have confirmed that bin laden was bin laden which made somebody say that the actual bin laden killing happened several days ago?

Which is true? When did the actual raid against bin laden take place?

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

Things move quickly:

If you open google-earth and input the search-phrase: "osama bin laden's compound" in the fly-to field, google-earth will fly you directly to Osama's house.

Alternatively you can see it here on google-maps:

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?q=osama+bin+laden's+compund&hl=en&ie=UTF8&view=map&cid=11196890339658103699&hq=osama+bin+laden's+compund&hnear=&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A"]http://maps.google.com/maps?q=osama+bin+laden's+compund&hl=en&ie=UTF8&view=map&cid=11196890339658103699&hq=osama+bin+laden's+compund&hnear=&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A[/ame]

EDIT: the local news here shows a different house? Maybe things move too fast this morning?
 
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Viper1

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WE GOT HIM!
That is all that matters to me. Unlike most, I lost a very good friend on the September 11 attacks.
2,977 souls were lost on that day. A bullet to the head is "JUSTICE" as far as I'm concerned.
Why take a chance on creating a living martyr. Criminals can direct others from inside a prison, and fools may dream of, or even attempt to get him released via kidnappings or threats.

As of this writing 7:52 AM ... NO PHOTOGRAPH has been released YET, and already there are groups posting FAKE photos and causing confusion(CNN has just reported).


Now Let's Move Forward. Today is a New Day for Freedom! U.S.A.
 

garyw

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2,977 souls were lost on that day. A bullet to the head is "JUSTICE" as far as I'm concerned.
Why take a chance on creating a living martyr.

So you create a dead martyr instead.
If he was captured alive he could have been paraded on TV, big show trial and reduced to nothing more than a criminal.

Instead he is now a dead hero, killed whilst fighting off the imperialist west. Terrorists will kill in his name and he will be celebrated.
 

Ghostrider

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Instead he is now a dead hero, killed whilst fighting off the imperialist west. Terrorists will kill in his name and he will be celebrated.

Well, what can one do? Going after the leaders and killing them may not be a big deal in the eyes of the terrorists' rank-and-file, but it will make the leaders themselves uncomfortable. Usually those guys don't plan to get martyred or whatever, they want to live to see the results of their actions. It's the little guys who blow themselves up and whatever.
Once you take out the leaders and manage to instill some fear in the others, they won't stick their necks out for a while. Yes, some idiot will bomb himself to smithereens hoping to get his virgins and whatever, but it's the organization that needs to be hit. You don't bring down the Mob by picking off the small fishes.
 

Urwumpe

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Turkey did it better- their enemy #1 is still rotting in a prison and is not even considered anything important by his former followers anymore. ;)

Also, justice is not revenge. Does killing Osama make anybody of the 3000 alive again? Sure not. Killing him fixed not a single problem that is connected to 9/11, it just removed one former big one of Al-Quaida from the map, made Obama look like a strong man and gives some news to distract from the next annoyance that US politicians will prepare.

Justice involves confronting somebody with his crimes, opening old wounds maybe, but also making it finally possible to heal them, because real justice leaves no open questions, no further dangers and no hatred. Justice has no emotions, doesn't care who you are.

Revenge instead is served cold.

Also, alive, Osama would have been a few million times more valuable. Maybe some of you don't have the desire to ask him any question. But some sure have. Also the damage potential of Osama had then not been the questions that he really answered, but the potential questions that he could have answered without the world and his followers really knowing. A captured leader is worse than a dead leader, because dead leaders can't tell any secrets.
 
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T.Neo

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To be fair, if Osama was paraded around and held to trial and whatnot, his compatriots could cause a lot of trouble kidnapping people and bargaining them for his release, etc.

Having Osama as a martyr isn't a good thing, but maybe it is the better bad option here.
 

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So you create a dead martyr instead.
If he was captured alive he could have been paraded on TV, big show trial and reduced to nothing more than a criminal.

Instead he is now a dead hero, killed whilst fighting off the imperialist west. Terrorists will kill in his name and he will be celebrated.
I hope they do celebrate his martyr-dom.....in front of a special forces sniper scope from about 1 1/2 miles away. If we would have captured him alive that would of been a trap for the USA. Everybody would blame the US for something we did or didn't do right at his trial bla bla bla. Evil USA. With him dead.....it is what it is, he's dead. Move on to the next terrorist.
 
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