OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

[TMac3000]

I suspect a lot of leftists/progressives use it too--for much the same reason as libertarians, just with a different attitude. But that is straying into basement territory...

 

[kamaz]

I suspect a lot of leftists/progressives use it too--for much the same reason as libertarians, just with a different attitude.

Yes they do.

 

[Enjo]

But that is straying into basement territory...

It's not more political than M$ lobbying in the same thread

 

[Loru]

I cannot use Linux on daily basis. Out of 14 PCs in my company only one runs Linux (dedicated Caldera solution for HP Latex printer to be specific) but that's mostly due to lack of specific drivers I need for my printing machines which simply are nonexistant for Linux (Which is curious for $25k+ printers).

2nd issue is software. In printing business you're condemned to use Adobe software and while it's probably possible to run it under WinE or something, I couldn't be bothered to "fight" with the system everytime I need to make some changes. (I know there are alternatives like GIMP but try loading complex project made in photoshop or indesign into it.

While I'm irritated with some of windows' quirks I managed to set up those PCs to provide rather seamless workflow and I couldn't imagine switch at the moment.

 

[jedidia]

I know there are alternatives like GIMP but try loading complex project made in photoshop or indesign into it

Gimp is useless for professional print.

 

[Lucy]

In work I use a fully Linux machine, being a Linux sysadmin or just makes life easier. I'm still able to provide overlap for the Windows things too, so it's not too bad there.

At home I've a dual boot with win10, but I can't remember the last time I actually bothered with it. Gentoo has everything I need lately, for work and play.

 

[Enjo]

While I'm irritated with some of windows' quirks I managed to set up those PCs to provide rather seamless workflow and I couldn't imagine switch at the moment.

I hear ya. The same applies for example in Control Engineering business, where I've been active for 2 years. Notice thought that these are all specific branches of industry. As long as you're dealing with generic programming (me), or network administration, you're fine with Linux. Thanks to MinGW I'm also able to create native Windows binaries, and test them via Wine directly from a native IDE. Note however, that I've also been working with C#, and I must say that its .NET library is quite impressive and well maintained. Java's libs aren't a half of an equivalence of .NET. Luckily, in my programming branch (computations), I'm fine with C++ and a simple wxWidgets (multiplatform) interface.

 

[ADSWNJ]

Well, lets explain it differently.

1. If you can't read the EULA before Windows is downloaded on your computer - invalid, thats called "Culpa in contrahendo".
2. If you can't read the EULA before Windows is installed on your computer - invalid (does not apply this time)
3. If you can read the EULA before installation, it is not a EULA in the US sense of "you sell your soul to this company" but a "AGB", general terms and conditions, which are strictly regulated by the German code civil (§307pp BGB - it is a long listing of terms that you may and may not include in your AGB). Even if a company carefully translates its EULA into German language, it is not automatically valid. About 99% of the terms you can find in a US EULA are violating German laws.

Important when checking AGBs for validity is that you need to apply the laws in reverse ... first §309, then §308, and then finally §307. Lawyers need their jobs, after all. Also, this validity check is called a "blue-pencil-check", which means: When a term is not valid, it does not get limited to the legal limits, but stays in effect, but is completely removed from the contract.

I would be willing to bet that Microsoft is able to enforce its EULA in Germany just fine, else the product would not be sold there. Multinational corporations are not in the habit of letting their intellectual software property be used without enforcable license terms. I note that the EULA is available online prior to purchase: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm (and I assume also in local languages and jurisdictions as needed). You also need to activate the software, which is under the terms of the EULA as well.

Eh... it's all theoretical anyway. If you like to feel you are personally not subject to the EULA, then it's fine until you violate it enough that you draw the attention of their legal department. Of you accept that you are subject to it, and just don't do bad things. Or be a warrior and fight the machine to invalidate a clause or two in the EULA in a jurisdiction, and watch it fill back in again as soon as their lawyers figure it out.

 

[kamaz]

I would be willing to bet that Microsoft is able to enforce its EULA in Germany just fine, else the product would not be sold there.

Nah. Even if most of the EULA is invalid, the software is still protected by law, i.e. you still have to pay for it.

 

[Urwumpe]

EOr be a warrior and fight the machine to invalidate a clause or two in the EULA in a jurisdiction, and watch it fill back in again as soon as their lawyers figure it out.

Actually, quite a few people and companies have already fought it successfully in the past. Companies have it harder than persons - business to business relations are handled differently assuming that all involved persons are professionals and knowing the laws and contract terms.

That is also why the EULA on the homepage may not be the EULA that applies to you. It has to be presented to you while you virtually sign a contract with Microsoft and then it has to be the one valid for the contract.

Generally, the laws are not fully adequate for software. But they work well enough and courts have fixed quite a lot of missing legislature work there. For example, warranty is interpreted slightly different.

 

[ADSWNJ]

Are there any examples of individuals grossly abusing the MSFT EULA in Germany and getting away with it? I'd be interested to read both sides.

 

[Urwumpe]

Are there any examples of individuals grossly abusing the MSFT EULA in Germany and getting away with it? I'd be interested to read both sides.

Grossly abusing? Can't remember anything like that. But then, the typical US EULA would be considered grossly abusing the customer here. Including the joke articles to make sure you have read it. For example the term, that the manufacturer is not responsible for any damages caused by his software. That is not legal in the whole EU as far as I can tell. The standard warranty applies and this one is especially nasty for cloud-based services like Windows 10. Practically, any automatic update of Windows resets the 2 year warranty period. The problem to exploit this right is in the fact that the customer has to prove that the bug was delivered to the customer. That is hard to prove in terms of software, unless you use professional deployment documentation - which is very important, because B2B warranty requires you to prove the discrepancy in 4 weeks after buying the software (12 hours if you buy flowers)

 

[n72.75]

Everything is so broken and useless these days. I must be getting old, but I feel like it was better back in the day when we weren't completely shut out of our tools by layer upon layer of abstraction.

 

[kamaz]

Everything is so broken and useless these days. I must be getting old, but I feel like it was better back in the day when we weren't completely shut out of our tools by layer upon layer of abstraction.

Get into embedded programming.

 

[kamaz]

Automatically download and install collections of Windows/Office patches:

http://www.wsusoffline.net/

 

[Linguofreak]

Property rights in computing

This is a basement response to some comments by Andy44 in the non-basement random comments thread.

The two bits I'm responding to are:

I understand pushing security updates in these days of wanna cry viruses, but treating my computer as if it belongs to MS is not cool.

And:

In any case, Linux is for nerdy computer people, not ordinary schmoes like me for whom a computer is merely an appliance like a stove or a refrigerator which I expect to simply turn on and have it work.

A lot of us nerdy computer people are downright terrified by some of the stuff that's been going on recently with regards to the declining degree to which private individuals can be meaningfully said to own their own computing hardware these days, and the implications that has for both our ability to be nerdy computer people (given that we're losing ownership rights in the tools of our trade), and the wider implications for the future of a free society (concentration of power, government surveillance, self-driving cars with law enforcement access to the navigation software, etc.).

As such, given the libertarian political views you have expressed on this forum in the past, and the concern you expressed above with regards to Microsoft acting like they own your computer, I would highly recommend that you read up on the subject and seriously consider whether using Linux, even at the cost of some discomfort, might be more in line with your principals than the other options available. (Though, from the discomfort angle, I think you're likely to have fairly good luck with something like Ubuntu or Mint).

 

[Keatah]

Most people don't want to bother with Linux because it is rough and requires too much discomfort. Besides, orbiter doesn't work on it.

 

[Artlav]

Unfortunately, there is a network effect - too many people use Windows, and thus too much good productivity software is made for Windows. At best Linux versions are unpolished, at worst - nonexistent.

On the other hand, the de-privacyation is going way too slowly to be noticed by regular people - it's one small annoyance at a time, swallow it like a sour pill and move on, oblivious to what it all adds up to.

Sadly, i doubt there is anything bad enough MS can do these days to actually lose their market if this mandatory updates and ownership hijack of the last few years couldn't do it.

I haven't been using Windows for several years by now, but still rather regularly fixing computers for others, ranging from stopping Win10 from sneaking in to castrating it so it would let people do their work.

Another sad observation is that it's people of my generation now - not even bothering to try to stop and learn anything about how these now-ubiquous things work and how to use them. But that's another story.

 

[RisingFury]

People don't use Linux for the same reason that they don't drive a 30 year old car. Sure, it can get you from point A to point B, but it lacks the comfort of modern life. This isn't because Linux is incapable of it, but because of its design philosophy.

Android is Linux based.

 

[Keatah]

It is the commercialization and requirements of mobile computing for the masses which forces linux to behave. Left on its own, it would remain a technical nightmare for the common man.

Unfortunately commercialization also comes with DRM, restrictions, and lock-downs.