OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

[Hielor]

I don't underestimate the necessary power needed for graphics. I consider the kind of graphics that actually need 4GB to be excessive, unnecessary, and overall detrimental to the concept of a game.

Quite honestly, I don't see what the problem is with letting people strip down the game and use a really simplified set of graphics. I guess I just expect less from my computer, not more.

Why are good graphics detrimental to the concept of a game? Lots of games benefit from more realistic graphics--notably, any game that's trying to be realistic. Flight sims come to mind.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Why are good graphics detrimental to the concept of a game? Lots of games benefit from more realistic graphics--notably, any game that's trying to be realistic. Flight sims come to mind.

Theyre not, but I have seen quite a few games that had beautiful graphics in front of a laughable back-end. Say, Spore, and pretty much every MMO ever made...

Nice 3d graphics are great, but even something like an orbital sim can work much better in 2d, since the computational load in a lot of areas drops by a third, leaving much more processing power for interesting game mechanics than you would have in a similar 3d game.

Just my 2/5 Nickel.

 

[Hielor]

Theyre not, but I have seen quite a few games that had beautiful graphics in front of a laughable back-end. Say, Spore, and pretty much every MMO ever made...

Well, sure, if the developers focus on graphics over content, then it's not that great. But you can have both. See: Skyrim.

Nice 3d graphics are great, but even something like an orbital sim can work much better in 2d, since the computational load in a lot of areas drops by a third, leaving much more processing power for interesting game mechanics than you would have in a similar 3d game.

Just my 2/5 Nickel.

They're two completely different genres. A 2d "orbital sim" is a toy for mobile phones and tablets, something you play with on the train to work or while waiting at the doctor's office, or something that you give to a kid to entertain them. They're casual games. And yeah, most casual games don't need awesome 3d graphics and can make do with much simpler.

Myself, I very much prefer games that are more realistic and immersive(Skyrim, DCS World, etc), and part of that realism/immersion is good graphics, which requires a beefy computer.

 

[Cosmic Penguin]

So to put this thread on a random tangent.......

.....why did the Linux family go into the limelight instead of the other OS architectures like the FreeBSD ones? :huh:

 

[Cosmic Penguin]

...and maybe another discussion topic: do you think there will be (by market share) a major new competitor in the general home/business PC OS market in the next 5-10 years?

 

[Pablo49]

Theyre not, but I have seen quite a few games that had beautiful graphics in front of a laughable back-end. Say, Spore, and pretty much every MMO ever made...

That is the fault of developers, not hardware. There have been awful games with minimal graphics, too.

Nice 3d graphics are great, but even something like an orbital sim can work much better in 2d, since the computational load in a lot of areas drops by a third, leaving much more processing power for interesting game mechanics than you would have in a similar 3d game.

2d does not mean 2/3 the requirements of a 3d game. You also can't just drop an axis and always have it leave your game unharmed.

I don't really get resisting hardware advancement. Not even like "meh don't feel like upgrading my rig right now" kind of mentality, but straight up finding fault with improved technology. That seems bonkers to me.

Myself, I very much prefer games that are more realistic and immersive(Skyrim, DCS World, etc), and part of that realism/immersion is good graphics, which requires a beefy computer.

That said, totally some immersive games with low graphics. Sound design is one of the largest players in making a game immersive.

 

[Linguofreak]

So to put this thread on a random tangent.......

.....why did the Linux family go into the limelight instead of the other OS architectures like the FreeBSD ones? :huh:

Part of it was USL v. BSDi. It caused delays in the release of 386BSD, and Linus Torvalds has stated that had that 386BSD been available at the time he wrote Linux, he just would have used that instead of writing his own Unix clone for the 386. And even once 386BSD was out, Linux's legal status was clearer, which gave it a boost.

That said, on the desktop side (as opposed to servers and whatnot), BSD actually is a bit more in the limelight than Linux: OS X is a FreeBSD derivative.

 

[jedidia]

But you can have both. See: Skyrim.

I feel tempted to start "the elder scrolls war" within the OS-war megathread now :lol:

do you think there will be (by market share) a major new competitor in the general home/business PC OS market in the next 5-10 years?

The question seems more, how separate will the general home/business PC OS market stay from the mobile OS market?

For example, before windows 2000, you had 2 separate markets for PC OS-es: business and home (or, at least, "industry" and "Desktop"... you really didn't want to control your multi-million CNC-center with windows 95...).

After windows 2000, the markets pretty much merged. With the declining speed of progress of desktop computers and the still rapidly advancing mobile computers, I can very well see the distinction between the two fields getting blured in the nearer future, which will probably again open up a parallel market for "hardcore Desktop OSes" for the "purists", which I can mostly see to be taken over by Linux.

Very interesting, for that matter, is that Gabe Newell sees Linux as the next gen gamers OS. He's currently pushing ATI and NVIDIA to provide propper driver support to help make it happen.

 

[Urwumpe]

Well, you can also do the direct comparison between LOMAC and DCS:FC3 now. While LOMAC was still fairly hardware-friendly, DCS really makes use of modern Hardware, and the new 1.3 EDGE will sure not run better on older Hardware (but scale better on modern one).

Still - the many engine improvements in DCS compared to LOMAC are really worth the Hardware requirements. The CPU and Memory demands require a 64-bit System - for handling the more complex world of DCS. The AFM will sure not calculate faster - but you can feel the difference.

 

[TMac3000]

I don't really get resisting hardware advancement. Not even like "meh don't feel like upgrading my rig right now" kind of mentality, but straight up finding fault with improved technology. That seems bonkers to me.

I agree with this...but it does feel to me like technological advance is taking some of the soul out of gaming; dumbing it down. Look at games like SSI's Star General from 1996, or Napalm (known as NAM in Europe), or Empire Deluxe for Windows, or Hexxagon from back in the shareware days
These were great games! They were fun! I for one greatly enjoyed 90's and early 00's gameplay in spite of the terrible (by today's standards) graphics, or maybe even because of them. Eye-candy is great in a flight sim or MMO, but I think it can be distracting in much of anything else.

Very interesting, for that matter, is that Gabe Newell sees Linux as the next gen gamers OS. He's currently pushing ATI and NVIDIA to provide propper driver support to help make it happen.

You'd be surprised how many gamers are pushing for this...I like running some of my old Windows games in Wine, but us Linux lovers want more serious games facepalm:Tux Racer:facepalm Although I have to admit I haven't heard much more about the Linux Steam client...

That said, totally some immersive games with low graphics. Sound design is one of the largest players in making a game immersive.

Ah, the music from Linewars II

 

[orb]

Although I have to admit I haven't heard much more about the Linux Steam client...

Currently supporting "456 games, 358 confirmed to be working" as of today (", 64 owned by you"). They could add games distributed with DOSBox to that list easily, but somehow they don't (it's all up to their publishers / developers, I presume). Other games are supposed to be played by streaming them from native environment (instead of using WINE).

I feel tempted to start "the elder scrolls war" within the OS-war megathread now :lol:

Morrowind FTW!

OpenMW plays quite nice on Linux, but not all features of the game are supported yet, bump mapped models (model replacements / add-ons) haven't used their own textures for me last time I checked (in February), and it's missing many graphical enhancements which are added by MGE.

 

[Pablo49]

I agree with this...but it does feel to me like technological advance is taking some of the soul out of gaming; dumbing it down. Look at games like SSI's Star General from 1996, or Napalm (known as NAM in Europe), or Empire Deluxe for Windows, or Hexxagon from back in the shareware days
These were great games! They were fun! I for one greatly enjoyed 90's and early 00's gameplay in spite of the terrible (by today's standards) graphics, or maybe even because of them. Eye-candy is great in a flight sim or MMO, but I think it can be distracting in much of anything else.

Again, not the technology's fault, but the developers. Your GPU doesn't design and program your game, it just puts it in the screen. Plenty of bad games came out then and still do, same for fantastic games. Nostalgia is super powerful, remember, games from your childhood will always seem better.

You'd be surprised how many gamers are pushing for this...I like running some of my old Windows games in Wine, but us Linux lovers want more serious games facepalm:Tux Racer:facepalm Although I have to admit I haven't heard much more about the Linux Steam client...

Valve is still pushing heavily for linux to be the gaming OS of choice. Multiple talks about Linux took place at Steam Dev Days

 

[Urwumpe]

Nostalgia is super powerful, remember, games from your childhood will always seem better.

Also, you should remember, that we remember the good games, and forget the many really bad ones.

The simple public Domain "oil Imperium" on the Atari ST only had 640x400 monochrome graphics - but it was really fun to Play.

(Who ever wants to play it on a Atari ST Emulator: http://www.deltalabs.biz/atari-pd-serie-gfa-151.htm )

 

[TMac3000]

Again, not the technology's fault, but the developers.

I'd say the blame goes to both. It's the technological advances in graphics that drive developers to push ever more eye-candy and less creative gameplay. Fortunately, Minecraft is an awesome counter-example, and I would encourage more games that require deep thought, logic, and creativity.

My other problem is that they seem to be dumbing it down for the masses. I mean, you know there's something wrong when you see seven-year-olds carrying around I-Pads. It's not that I don't want seven-year-olds to learn about technology--I do!--it's that with a tablet or a Galaxy, they don't have to. These devices do everything for you, and are largely disposable. That's a problem for the environment. And that kid is going to turn 18 or 19 having no idea how to fix his PC, so when it breaks he will just spend more money on a whole new machine, rather than a few tens of bucks for a replacement part.

I also want to see programming pushed more among the masses. You are no slave to any software company if you can write your own games--and with sufficient skills, you would have the perfect gaming experience for you!

Sorry for this rant, but that's what I mean when I say that all this fancy tech has lost its "soul". People just seem kind of "meh" about it.

 

[Urwumpe]

Where is the "Rant about how it is impossible to fix a modern car because you need to study for years before you can even Exchange a battery?"

And I am really upset, that this damn youth doesn't learn how to fix nuclear reactors anymore. All slaves of the nuclear industry. Operate it until it explodes and then borrow Money to build a new one.

 

[TMac3000]

And I am really upset, that this damn youth doesn't learn how to fix nuclear reactors anymore. All slaves of the nuclear industry. Operate it until it explodes and then borrow Money to build a new one.

That's a weak analogy to say the least. You are not going to see your whole town die if something goes wrong with your computer.

I think that anyone can learn to fix their own computer, and anyone can learn how to program. I understand that not everyone wants to, and that those people have to be marketed to as well. I just really think that society should encourage the study of these skills.

 

[Pablo49]

I'd say the blame goes to both. It's the technological advances in graphics that drive developers to push ever more eye-candy and less creative gameplay. Fortunately, Minecraft is an awesome counter-example, and I would encourage more games that require deep thought, logic, and creativity.

You kinda just went "well it is both the developers and the tech" and then went on to explain only game design issues. A GPU does not tell a developer "YO, FLASHY GRAPHICS PLS", the developer, or in the case of AAA games, some guy way up the ladder is the one who makes that call. There is no requirement to use whatever graphics tech is available. And to be fair, graphics quality is usually targeted around a median expected hardware capability, because it is easier to sell games that can run on more computers. (Some neat stats gathered from steam about hardware here.) The problem you are really trying to describe is a game design issue. A game without solid gameplay and just flashy graphics? Game design issue.

I also want to see programming pushed more among the masses. You are no slave to any software company if you can write your own games--and with sufficient skills, you would have the perfect gaming experience for you!

Promote game jams, they are a fantastic excuse to code and make games. Game development has a very low barrier to entry. Best part is it's super fun! I highly recommend anyone who enjoys video games take a crack at making one.


Also, you can shake your fist and say "BACK IN MY DAY WE USED TO <whatever>, AND WE WAS BETTER FOR IT" same as the generation before you and before them. It won't change that things don't work as they used to, and eventually how things work now will fall out of favor, too. I don't think it is critical for everyone to understand how to fix their PC. (I know very little about hardware #yolo amirite?) Also, programming and other technical jobs are being supported often, in December there was that "Hour of Code" or whatever that the White House promoted, and in general it is a pretty big topic. And as for not being a slave to any software company, you don't need to know a line of code to flex your power as a consumer, so that is fairly a non-issue.

 

[Urwumpe]

That's a weak analogy to say the least. You are not going to see your whole town die if something goes wrong with your computer.

I think that anyone can learn to fix their own computer, and anyone can learn how to program. I understand that not everyone wants to, and that those people have to be marketed to as well. I just really think that society should encourage the study of these skills.

I disagree there. While I am damn sure, that learning to program is one of the easiest challenges in the world, gaining the needed experience for many Standard Tasks is not always possible.

Yes, you can program a lot yourself. But not everything from day one.

And yes, you can learn to administrate your own PC professionally. Including learning how to administrate a minor LAN in your home.

But everybodies day has only 24 hours.

So what: Are People really stupid, if they decide that learning to do complex technological things themselves is not a high priority in their life? I think they are smart - they Focus on things, that maybe I don't want to Focus myself. Learning to do a brain surgery takes a lot longer than learning to repair your Computer and a lot more dedication. And I really hope that somebody had the time to learn it, should I ever Need a brain surgery.

And for the programming... should you ever Need something programmed so badly and don't have the skills for it...you can hire professionals for that. Yes, it costs Money and is often disappointing, because having a professional analysing your requirements can be a pretty selfreflection. But it saves you time to do something else and allows you to get somebody who can do that all much better and in a set time.

 

[BruceJohnJennerLawso]

Promote game jams, they are a fantastic excuse to code and make games. Game development has a very low barrier to entry. Best part is it's super fun! I highly recommend anyone who enjoys video games take a crack at making one.

Ummm...

I hate to throw cold water on things, but game development is actually pretty tricky, especially if you're new to developing games, and super especially if you dont know how to program. Its definitely a great experience, but I wouldnt describe it as easy...

On the other hand, creating mods for existing games is often a lot easier, definitely would be my first suggestion for an up & coming game developer.

But hey, that's just me. Its not that people shouldn't try, just don't expect to be rivaling commercial games on your first try...



---------- Post added at 00:37 ---------- Previous post was at 00:28 ----------

Again, not the technology's fault, but the developers. Your GPU doesn't design and program your game, it just puts it in the screen. Plenty of bad games came out then and still do, same for fantastic games. Nostalgia is super powerful, remember, games from your childhood will always seem better.

I'm sure some of it is nostalgia, but still, there are a lot of older games released well before my time that I find terrifically entertaining. Say, NHL94 and Rollercoaster Tycoon?

Valve is still pushing heavily for linux to be the gaming OS of choice. Multiple talks about Linux took place at Steam Dev Days

Im surprised it took this long, honestly. Linux is generally considered to be a much better development platform, as well as being significantly faster than Windows.

 

[Hielor]

Im surprised it took this long, honestly. Linux is generally considered to be a much better development platform, as well as being significantly faster than Windows.

DirectX.