McCain or Obama?

Which Canidate do you want to win the election?

  • McCain

    Votes: 54 36.2%
  • Obama

    Votes: 95 63.8%

  • Total voters
    149
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We are good and they are bad worked well in the 1930s, when nationalism was the only thing left to lean to. Today, people have something to loose, and they don't want to loose it.
 
One of my patients yesterday stated she truly believes Obama is the "anti-Christ" and McCain is the "new Messiah".

I almost fell from my chair when she said this; are people here actually that gullable that they believe this c..p or are they so far gone in their believes of good vs bad that they can't even see reality ?

Guess I'll be voting for the "anti-christ"; just hope they have the latest version of Orbiter when I get to Hell. :rofl:
 
One of my patients yesterday stated she truly believes Obama is the "anti-Christ" and McCain is the "new Messiah".

I almost fell from my chair when she said this; are people here actually that gullable that they believe this c..p or are they so far gone in their believes of good vs bad that they can't even see reality ?

Guess I'll be voting for the "anti-christ"; just hope they have the latest version of Orbiter when I get to Hell. :rofl:
That kind of thinking is just as scary to me as it is to you. On the other hand, I'm also disgusted by the kind of thinking that is premised on the notion that if you just have good intentions, everything will work out OK, that somehow you can make things in the world OK if you just give enough power to people who have good intentions. I'm also disgusted by people who don't think that there really is such a thing as good and bad.
 
That kind of thinking is just as scary to me as it is to you.

Yesterday night, after the football match(Germany-Wales, just in case you missed it :P ), they showed a pretty shocking, but interesting documentation about the religious undertones of the US election campaign. The original English title of the documentation was "Jesus Politics" by Ilan Ziv.

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/7840/1263704/zdf
http://www.jesuspoliticsthemovie.com/

Was pretty balanced and also showed how religious groups claim successful candidates, as well as the other way around.
 
Yesterday night, after the football match(Germany-Wales, just in case you missed it :P ), they showed a pretty shocking, but interesting documentation about the religious undertones of the US election campaign. The original English title of the documentation was "Jesus Politics" by Ilan Ziv.

http://www.presseportal.de/pm/7840/1263704/zdf
http://www.jesuspoliticsthemovie.com/

Was pretty balanced and also showed how religious groups claim successful candidates, as well as the other way around.

I am an atheist down to the subatomic level of my being, living in one of the most religious cities in the one of the most religious countries in the world. As must be painfully obvious by now, I’m also someone who spends a lot of time thinking about history, political philosophy and practical politics.

Twenty years ago, I had a fairly one-dimensional view of the kind of material covered in that film – I saw a rising theocracy, and was ready to ally myself with just about anybody who would oppose it. That’s changed, for a number of reasons. First and foremost, I’ve come to realize that the rise of religious politics in the US has been largely a matter of reaction to what I have come to see as unreflective over-reaching by the secular left in America in culture and politics. The disdainful attitude toward the traditional values of fairly normal people in the center of the American political and cultural landscape shown by those who were in control of American culture for three decades created a deep, powerful sense of being personally assaulted among tens of millions of Americans. Even if the leftist cultural elites hadn’t had any influence at all on politics and public policy, this would have created the conditions for a dangerous reaction.

But the problem went much farther and deeper than just creating a mass culture of insulting disdain. For a long time, policies seeped into law that huge portions of the American people found very threatening. “The 1968 Generation” of cultural and political actors, mentored by what I call “The 1932 Generation,” went way too far, way too fast for a lot of people in America. And they did it in a way that was strategically and tactically stupid, because it ignored the reality that they had left behind a very large portion of the American population, and their words and actions expressed nothing but hostility toward those people.

Setting aside who may have been right or wrong in this brewing culture war, the result was inevitable. To use a term from Marxist theory in a little different way than it was originally intended, you can’t “seize the commanding heights” and begin to control things in a democracy unless you either appease or crush those who oppose you. (Note that Marx had it exactly wrong – the “commanding heights” aren’t the means of production of material goods, but rather the means of production of cultural expression – the ’68 generation had the latter, but by and large not the former.) Eventually, revolutionaries who act this way will face a reaction at the ballot. And that’s what happened.

Thus, whenever I see something like this film, I feel that those who are so frightened of the religious right have no one to blame but themselves. They rushed ahead of themselves and behaved as if they had the whole thing won, when in fact they didn’t. They began their victory dance way too soon, and have been paying the price ever since.
 
Yet another clear win for Obama during tonights debate.
McCain seemed generally irritated,unsure of himself and on the verge of a meltdown most of the time.

I'd rather have a president who can keep his cool during heated debates.
Saw the debate. Both candidates were quite composed and I think both did well. Both did stutter a few times as they were thinking on their feet, maybe that's what you saw.
 
I keep hearing how if you give tax breaks to the wealthy that out of the goodness of their hearts they will create jobs because they love the American worker.

Either that, or because they have more money with which to start or expand business enterprises.

If, instead of hiring manual laborers, they use the money for automation, then how are the automated devices designed, built, transported and operated?

Even if they "outsource," then that will require the creation and operation of facilities that are required to manage the interface between home and abroad. And outsourcing is a calculation; the inclination of companies, to outsource, is dependent upon the comparative expense of operating at home, or operating abroad, and that inclination can be reduced by minimizing the governmental burdens of operating at home.

Simply, money is more likely to be beneficial to the economy, in its various manifestations, when the money is in the hands of free persons pursuing their various goals, than when the money is in the hands of government.

As for Obama's promise to "end tax breaks for corporations that send jobs overseas," I don't know what such specific tax breaks he is talking about, or if they, in fact, even exist. I would suppose that if they do exist, then they have likely been implemented for some purpose that I would prefer to understand, rather than simply to trust in Obama's rhetoric.
 
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Either that, or because they have more money with which to start or expand business enterprises.

And did the country profit from such plans? What did Bushs tax cuts bring the USA in 8 years? The USA did lose money every year. And that not because of a stupid war, but because of the decisions of those people who profited from the tax cuts.
 
You have 13 parties in US and still you are not giving a chance to any of the other candidates.

John McCain REP
Obama DEM
Gloria La Riva PSL
Chuck Baldwin CPF
Gene Amondson PRO
Bob Barr LBT
Thomas Stevens OBJ
James Harris SWP
Cyhtia McKinney GRE
Alan Keys AIP
Ralp Nader ECO
Brian Moore SPF
Charles Jay BTP

This could explain why you only see 2 candidates.
http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml
 
And did the country profit from such plans? What did Bushs tax cuts bring the USA in 8 years? The USA did lose money every year. And that not because of a stupid war, but because of the decisions of those people who profited from the tax cuts.

The USA had excellent GDP growth for most of Bush's administration. The national debt did rise considerably, however, since although the tax cuts resulted in more money to the government, the government also spent even more money (partly, for the Iraq war).

I don't know what you mean about the USA's losing money "because of the decisions of those people who profited from the tax cuts." If you are referring to the current "banking crisis," then I don't have any reason to suppose that it was in any way a result of tax cuts - which certainly were not restricted to bankers and such, anyway.
 
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The USA had excellent GDP growth for most of Bush's administration. The national debt did rise considerably, however, since although the tax cuts resulted in more money to the government, the government also spent even more money (partly, for the Iraq war).

Actually, the GDP did not grow. You have a massive trade deficit since years. You had the Dow Jones grow, but the real economic figures looked less well, that's why many people already expected a crash since 2004. But nobody thought that it would finally be so bad.
 
Actually, the GDP did not grow. You have a massive trade deficit since years. You had the Dow Jones grow, but the real economic figures looked less well, that's why many people already expected a crash since 2004. But nobody thought that it would finally be so bad.

The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is, according to my understanding, a summary of the value of all goods and services produced, domestically. Thus, it would be distinct from any international trading. More to the point, it would recognizably be affected by the level of taxation.

The Dow Jones (basically, a subset of the stock market, as far as I know about it), is - like the stock market, generally - likely to be a complicated matter, with many influences, but it fundamentally can be regarded as representing the value of major economic enterprises, so that if it grows (not necessarily day-to-day, but averaged over significant time periods), then this generally means that the value of such enterprises, has increased as the result of their increased production (and therefore, recognizably increased value as productive enterprises). Thus, it is evidence of GDP growth.
 
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Which services did you include in the GDP? ;) Doesn't it also include trading loans? ;) How much is a US car worth, when it is brought by a loan, which can't be repaid?
 
Which services did you include in the GDP? ;) Doesn't it also include trading loans? ;) How much is a US car worth, when it is brought by a loan, which can't be repaid?

I don't really know the details of how the GDP is calculated; conceptually, it represents all goods and services. I don't know how, if at all, it would account for any loans, although it seems likely that it would include the salaries paid to personnel at lending institutions. The car would likely be evaluated as its being a product, output by a factory, without regard to the details of its purchase.

If you are seeking an understanding of the effect, upon the GDP, likely to result from the banking crisis, then I would surmise that, inasmuch as the banking crisis basically represents a large decline in the extent to which money is being lended (due to the uncertainty of the value of current assets), then the result would be less money available to pursue various economic activities, and therefore a slowed growth, or even reduction, of the GDP.
 
I don't really know the details of how the GDP is calculated; conceptually, it represents all goods and services. I don't know how, if at all, it would account for any loans, although it seems likely that it would include the salaries paid to personnel at lending institutions. The car would likely be evaluated as its being a product, output by a factory, without regard to the details of its purchase.

The GDP is a statistic, and you should never trust a statistic you have not forged yourself.

If you grow food and don't sell it, it does not appear inside the GDP. The GDP is thus no measure of your wealth at all. It is a measure of your economic activity. Your economy can go down and your GDP still go up, by people who sell their assets. When your economy is down, trading will go down and so will the GDP - but long after the damage was done.

As the GDP calculations are almost like asking a crystal orb, you should not trust it too much.

Also I think, when the value of a house drops because of the mortgage crisis, this drop is not accounted inside the GDP, but the volume of the building market will shrink over time.
 
Well, I looked up GDP on Wikipedia, and found that it does include an evaluation of international trade balance. Also, it is measured by consumption, so that the value of the car would presumably be determined by its purchase price, but whether it was purchased with a loan that was ultimately not repaid, would not likely determine the effect on the GDP, of the car, itself.

GDP does not, apparently, explicitly include the trading of loans, although that can have an indirect effect.

Selling assets should not really affect GDP, however, since the money acquired by the seller, would presumably then proceed to be used to purchase other products. As Wikipedia points out, the GDP is intended to represent domestic production, and thus, in fact, the extent of wealth increase, and not merely spending, although the measurement of (some) spending, is the methodology used to calculate GDP.
 
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GDP is not a measure for growth, just for transactions. It does not measure if transactions are desirable or not.

If couples divorce more, legal fees increase GDP.
If a company destroys environment to produce something, GDP goes up.
As government use taxpayer money to repair damage done to environment, GPD increases again.
If you have high crime, people will need to spend in protection, and that will raise GDP.

So if GDP is growth, divoces and crime make a country to grow, and environmental damage causes double growth.
 
Also, it is measured by consumption, so that the value of the car would presumably be determined by its purchase price, but whether it was purchased with a loan that was ultimately not repaid, would not likely determine the effect on the GDP, of the car, itself.

Exactly. So you could produce GDP without actually having the economic power for it. The GDP is a very bad system to measure immaterial stuff correctly. Like ar81 described, stealing a car actually increases the GDP three times, if insured.


  1. When you sell the stolen car outside the black market
  2. When the insurance pays the victim some money for the loss
  3. When the victim buys a new car.

It will not lower the GDP, because the victim consumes less luxury goods because it has to pay higher insurance fees. It only drops practically, when the income of the victim drops or the victims starts to save money for a better car. But as you have almost no saving of money inside the USA (compared to Europe, where economists explain about the other extreme), this effect is not too critical.

GDP does not, apparently, explicitly include the trading of loans, although that can have an indirect effect.

loans are basically just services, just like insurances.
 
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