Local Space Transportation System Redux

[GregBurch]

Oh, come on now, I later realises that they didn't look all that similar... I think I said that it reminded me, remember?

... "scurilous" was too strong a word -- sorry.

 

[James.Denholm]

Man, I don't even know what that means. I was more worried about "copied". Anywho, apology accepted.

 

[GregBurch]

First image of the No. 2 ship with the lower-poly tank-covers:

GB

 

[Arrowstar]

I like.

 

[eveningsky339]

Vahry nahce. Fibe dollah?

 

[Andy44]

Tank covers? For blocking sunlight I presume?

 

[James.Denholm]

They're actualy to prevent spear-weilding ancient greeks who don't like Greg's usage of the name "Prometheus".

The Probe said so.

 

[ar81]

I just wonder if there could be a way to create the tools to mount pieces together.
You have created great stuff, but I find that putting things together requires text scenario editing. Is there a way to do it in-game?

 

[GregBurch]

I just wonder if there could be a way to create the tools to mount pieces together.
You have created great stuff, but I find that putting things together requires text scenario editing. Is there a way to do it in-game?

Which "pieces" are you talking about?

 

[ar81]

Which "pieces" are you talking about?

Once I wanted to mount a module onto a frame on the floor and I could not do it.

For SSBB and BSP I fortunately found a way to make a tool to build scenarios to enjoy your magnificent addons.

If you ask me, your addons are so sophisticated by now that in my opinion they deserve a DL module. I might like to suggest to ally a programmer here, because I know nothing of C++. I only know about Visual Basic. I find C++ extremely unfamiliar.

 

[GregBurch]

well -- I have this crazy idea that people might actually want to do the actual work of moving the modules around and mating them manually using things like RMS modules that I've built -- crazy, I know ...

 

[GregBurch]

BTW, there have now been over 160 downloads of the first addon in this series and not a peep of feedback. I don't know if it's so broken that it's unusable, or so great that people can't stop flying long enough to let me know if it's working or that it's so mundane that it's not worth a comment.

 

[ar81]

In my case I have uploaded lots of things. One thing I learned is that when people do not comment it is because people liked it and had no problems.

The only cases where I got posts were when people ask about how to use this or that because my documentation lacked something. I take silence as a job that was well done.

In corporate affairs, about 1 of 25 unhappy customers use to complain.
If you had 25 downloads and nothing happened, then that's Ok.

I know I haven't provided too much feedback either. However, a tool devoted to your addon could say something about how good and interesting it is. Your meshes are far from crappy, and your skills in creating INI files are remarkable. I think you are about 1 step from making modules...

Here it is a tutorial I found on C++ to create DLL modules
[ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=2210"]ShipDLLWriter[/ame]
As you can see, there is some sort of template-scripting-like as you can see with scenarios.
Art, the maker of Star Frontiers addons could help you with the resources you may need to compile.
I feel you have reached the point where DLL and coding is required to make the ultimate addon.
I feel you have depleted the potential of Spacecraft3.dll

 

[n0mad23]

The above statement is about as good a compliment as they come!

Feedback's funny with the Orbinauts; I've come to the realization that a pat on the back around here comes in the form of downloads. Any engagement beyond that is something to celebrate.

Your add-ons are legendary within the community, Greg. This one only adds to your reputation.

Beautiful and functional work, which I appreciate even more knowing a bit about the "historic Universe" that it arises from.

 

[Arrowstar]

I agree, just downloaded it and I have to say it is a rather fun little ship. I'm telling you, nothing beats looking out the window while docked at Clarke station only to see the massive complex around you. Really gives you an opportunity to feel part of a universe. The SC3 modules don't bother me so much. Occasionally I have to copy and rename a config file somewhere to get duplicates, but no big deal in my eyes. SC3 allows Greg to come out with excellent looking addons that do precisely what I think they're meant to do: simulate a near future where the infrastructure to leave Earth has finally arrived. And, though this may be selfish of me (for which I apologize), the speed at which Greg puts out these awesome creations of his means there's always something new to play with!

Thanks Greg!

 

[ar81]

One thing I have noticed is that Greg is an artist. Part of being an artist is to have 1 moment of inspiration and 99 moments of sweat. Just like an INI file or creation of a scenario, coding C++ is also coding. The difference is that programming allows you to add functionality without being limited by an external tool.

This is why I love Visual Basic. I have the freedom to automate, and as an artist I understand coding is an art too. You feel the same delight when you finish an addon, or when you release a working program.

Coding, just like making arts is a matter of creating something that does not exist. You have headaches with some problems when coding, yeah... but if you did not have the chance of coding, you only would be wishing that someone could give you the chance of having those headaches. Making animations is coding, in a way. So I see not problem in passing from INI files to coding, for you are already thinking, solving problems, and coding.

I know Greg is not the one who likes to be limited. He likes more and more real virtual realism in his addons, and he reached the limit. The next step in realism is to code to add the features that are missing for the ultimate addon, the ultimate personal challenge.

From time to time I work on Space Orbinomics II. I have had to redesign and start from scratch about 5 times,until I found a way to manage user interface and internal design. The last beta you knew had messy code structure, it had just too many forms and it was not good for users to have that. I wanted to improve that, I reached the limit several times, when suddenly it became too heavy and sluggish until I found a trick to make image display faster, then I needed to redesign data handling to make it more understandable and easier to debug... It has been quite a challenge, quite a school... and I have not even reached half of the way for a release. It goes slow but fine.

The first 10 programs I did, the first 10 meshes I ever made, the first 10 songs I made, were not master pieces. But those were necessary steps to reach a goal.

I really feel that Greg might not like to be limited. Just like Kev33 took the step of jumping from INI files to making DLLs, Greg might do the same. We know how it feels to pilot a Delta Glider IV. Imagine what it would be to make the jump from INI to DLL in Greg's addons...

 

[Arrowstar]

Greg, perhaps one modification that could be made to the vessel. I took her for a little test run through Titan's atmosphere and actually found that she was generating lift around 30km or so. Something tells me this shouldn't be normal performance.

 

[ar81]

What could be an interesting DLL module?
How about controlling throttle of engine module from the cockpit module?
How about having a concept similar to TTM24 addon implemented but for LST+BSP+SSBB?

 

[Art]

Limitation

Pablo asked me to check out this thread:

Greg and I had a discussion on this subject about two years ago, but I thought I would get in a lick. I always hoped Greg would start using dll's for his work.

I wrote one .ini file. I could not really get it to function properly for my launch vertical, land horizontal vessel. I could not set the orientation of the atmospheric engines so that they operated off the hover thrusters yet were parallel to the mains. To "fix" that issue, and knowing that I needed more fuctionality for vessels that needed to rotate heading orientation (pilot view forward being +y vs. +z) I needed a module. With some help from Trevor Johns, I put together a free compiler. I then sat down, not knowing a thing about C++, and puzzled through the sample code for the shuttle PB. It took a few hours to figure out what did what. I documented as I learned. I had my ship after that. I could then use some simple algebra to create all kinds of neat stuff. After I finally started catching on to the notation used in the API, tons of functions that an INI user cannot even dream of using were right at my fingertips. The API was written by a hard-core academic for folks formally trained in C++, so it looks like black magic. In reality, if you ask a layman that is "in the know" (do not even think about asking a "real programmer" a question about programming) you find that all of it is retardedly simple. If it wasn't for terrible misleading explainations all poised in garbled programming lingo, all the knowledge I have of programming could have been garnered in about a month. Fact is, with a decent c++ ship template and knowledge of orbiter .ini files, you can create the equivelant of an .ini based ship as easily an an .ini, and you will immediately have more functions to play with. Once you see how a statement is made in C++ (hey, it's fill in the blanks functions and middle school algebra) you can immediately start "rolling your own".

Example: An attachment point.

INI:

[PARENT_ATTACH_0]
NAME="Pilotattach"
POS=(0,-0.08,7.736)
DIR=(0,1,0)
ROT=(1,0,0)
LOOSE=1
RANGE=20

in C++ for a DLL:

Pilotattach = CreateAttachment (false, _V(0,-.08,7.736), _V(0,1,0), _V(0,1,0), "PI", false);

In a DLL, you can then use the variable Pilotattach you have created to do LOTS of things. You can make a statement that says to eject the pilot when the pitch, bank, and altitude are within certain ranges after a certain type of damage or failure happens or automatically before a crash. You can do anything you like...there are just hundreds of functions in the API. Vinka's DLL was written so that people without access to a compiler could create ships more complex than the config system wiould allow. Now you can get a compiler for free.

In the function "CreateAttachment" above you can create an attachment in a ship just like in an INI. In a dll, you have nine other functions that directly deal with creating, identifying, using, redefining, counting, assigning and deleting attachments.
Anyone that gets into writing .dll's as a non-programmer that would like for me to help them translate the API so that they can figure out a function, as well as giving them a working example of the code as it is actually used (what the API lacks as an instruction manual, which it was not intended to be) need only drop me an e-mail. I have helped many total noobs rig their first ship, most of whom eventually lost interest in developing. Helping someone like Greg would be a great pleasure.​

 

[GregBurch]

I'm tied up with work and family right now -- but I'm reading this thread out of the corner of my eye. Pablo's being merciless on this, and I don't blame him. He's right that I could do a lot more with C++ coded .dlls. I'm thinking ....