Idea to make orbiter more rewarding

[Urwumpe]

A proof of concept would be a much better foundation for discussion than just "thinking out loud" here, and it might even help to get huge errors in the concept pointed out early. Plus you'd have something to attract contributors with.

Fine. So, let's wait for the first POC to arrive.

And since you are not committed to the topic (only interested. Maybe involved), the guy with some experience in open-source development, and who is not too old or too busy (because of post-count), has to do it, right?

 

[turtle91]

A proof of concept would be a much better foundation for discussion than just "thinking out loud" here...

I see, you seem to have a complete diffierent point than I have.
From your comments it looks for me, that you would like postive feedback, which might act as a "thruster" to work on a project. Fair enough...no problem with that.

My point is different:
Working on something, because I want to make it(...and to learn about it...).
Then, if it works...giving something back to the community, without giving any attention about positive/negative feedback.
I would be more interested in pure technical feedback to improve the project or to fix issues/bugs.

But:

...and it might even help to get huge errors in the concept pointed out early

I agree, so..."thinking load" just to have some (on topic)feedback from more experienced folks(compared to myself), like i.e. the comments from Fred18.
He worked allready out all "my" ideas (daydreams...if you want...), but in a different context.
That's the reason, why I pointed to his great addons.
I am not "requesting" something, just to share my ideas about this topic and pointing to some addons, where the allready existent code might be helpfull to make this initial idea progressing.

 

[Longjap]

2) for the more classical approach: I was thinking about developing a planetary probe for a single mission (like the galileo or the Juno for jupiter, or the Cassini for Saturn) with a series of built in features like the one mentioned, so for example magnetic fields, pictures and all possible science data to be then broadcasted to earth and generating science reports or something like that. If built for a specific planet or planetary system (i.e. saturn and its moons) it shouldn't be too complicated.

for the 2nd point if instead of a specific planet we are talking about a general system that's totally another story...

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

Yep, that sounds awesome. I'm going to look into the rest of your add-ons!
Taking pictures is also a nice idea, that's one that I haven't thought about yet. If I can help in this project let me know.

Many of them might not be worth the time invested, because they only appeal to a small subset of the community.

I disagree. Add-on developers shouldn't be attending "clients" or the demand, it's not a paid job and the people using add-ons don't have a right to act like they own the devs something. Because for me, (Only very humble first beginnings!) I do it for my own use and fun first and foremost. If someone else likes it too, it is a bonus. And yes, the idea I can finally give something back that others might like after years of leeching is a nice one.

People here will always make something that others also like, because we like the same stuff or it makes live easier for us in creating or flying. I can't thank enough for sharing all the fantastic add-ons I've made use of over the years.

Let's help each other getting the best out of ourselves in giving help to the questions one might have in developing, or criticizing in a positive way why something might be a bad idea. Even though it might be a niche corner even for orbiter standards, you never know if the "recourse" can be used in something you like in the future.

 

[Face]

Fine. So, let's wait for the first POC to arrive.

In a way, Fred's mentioned features already are one. I've never heard about them prominently here, but then I'm not patrolling every corner of O-F. It could well be that this is the newest hype, that's why I've written it to be a constructive aspect.

And since you are not committed to the topic (only interested. Maybe involved), the guy with some experience in open-source development, and who is are not too old or too busy (because of post-count), has to do it, right?

Nobody HAS to do it. It just doesn't make sense to chit-chat around it without something concrete to discuss. However, we have some proponents of the idea here that are programmers by their own words, so it would naturally fall on one of them to implement such a POC. And if I'm not mistaken, one already is underway (Lua was mentioned). It will be interesting to continue this once that work is published and/or open for review.

But of course, if that experienced not too old and (because of post-count) not too busy guy would do it, it would be in good hands, I'd say :tiphat: .

From your comments it looks for me, that you would like postive feedback, which might act as a "thruster" to work on a project. Fair enough...no problem with that.

No. It isn't just about positive feedback. It is about feedback with a foundation. No problem if it is negative, the point is that it is based on something concrete, not some idea alone.

Example: let's say the idea is optional economics for Orbiter. Let's also assume no regular on the forums chimes in, only newbies. I'm pretty sure that nobody would say "nah, I won't touch it with a ten-foot-pole". It will be more or less "good idea, let's try" etc. But if then somebody goes and implements it, it could well be that AFTER that time invested, nobody is interested anymore, because:

1. It is not what he/she expected.
2. It does not implement that single aspect everybody (but the author) just assumed it will have (look at the NMS disaster).
3. It's too hard to use for the gain expected.
4. It's too easy to use for a realistic space simulator.
5. It's not interesting anymore.
6. Too many bugs, why it's not just working(TM)?
7. etc.

However, if that economics proposer would come up with even a simple excel sheet to show exactly WHAT aspects he has in mind (how those economics calculate), people can discuss that points based on what is there, not what could be there. The proposer can then gather that feedback (positive or negative), adjust his vision, adjust his POC, and start a new try. Or realize that his revolutionary idea is actually not that new, and has many flaws he never thought of. Or realize that in the end he would just do it for himself, because nobody gives a dime, anyway.

 

[Longjap]

I think Face, Urwumpe and others are making the right point. If you want something different, don't start bleating for "someone" to make your magic a reality - DYOR and DIY.

Can you point out where I or someone else was bleating for "someone" to make the magic a reality? Honestly, I don't get the hostility, at all.

 

[fred18]

Since we are talking about features that could be interesting and a bit different and some of my addons were mentioned, I'd like to point out also that in the [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=6522"]TG Habitat Module[/ame] there is one I think it's worth to mention. The addon itself is not anything spectacular, but there is a "realtime option". Basically it saves the real life time when you shut down orbiter, and when you open the scenario again it calculates the time that has passed in the real world and updates everything accordingly.
Also the [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4331"]Real Time Update [/ame] addon does something like that. I think that those are other proof of concept for other ways of using orbiter.

 

[Face]

Add-on developers shouldn't be attending "clients" or the demand, it's not a paid job and the people using add-ons don't have a right to act like they own the devs something.

I don't understand what you want to say here, can you please re-phrase that? Do you mean that people using addons don't have the DUTY to act like they owe the devs something? Or that they don't have the right to act like they DEMAND something? Or something else?

Because for me, (Only very humble first beginnings!) I do it for my own use and fun first and foremost. If someone else likes it too, it is a bonus. And yes, the idea I can finally give something back that others might like after years of leeching is a nice one.

So did you already implement an add-on regarding the topic here? If so, why don't you just show it to us? Or do you mean that you perhaps - if everything goes right - maybe eventually create something to give to the community? If the later, then there is no need to "fight" for it here, is it? Just do it.

Yes, development is fun. If you want to do it for the fun of it, by all means, please do it. Don't just talk about it, do it for real.

Let's help each other getting the best out of ourselves in giving help to the questions one might have in developing, or criticizing in a positive way why something might be a bad idea. Even though it might be a niche corner even for orbiter standards, you never know if the "recourse" can be used in something you like in the future.

You've already heard why it might be a bad idea to start without a plan. No magic will make your ideas appear in the real world. Also, there is nothing developed here (yet). It is all just ideas, dreams, cheap talk. Nobody can give honest development tips on this alone, it can just be some general advise.

If you need some encouragement: yes, your idea is interesting. Please develop an addon out of it, at least 3 other folks here will certainly take a look at it once done (me included). Perhaps start with the MFDTemplate in the /Orbitersdk/samples folder, and adjust it to your needs.

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:32 ----------

I think that those are other proof of concept for other ways of using orbiter.

Indeed they are. What I'm always missing with these creative addons, though, is actual feedback on how the feature is received. Perhaps a good way to gather that is to create a list of features and/or whole addons that can be considered "gamification POC", where people can say "hey, never heard about that one, I'll try it", together with a feedback if it was good or bad experience. Over time, this could be a nice database of things that are worth implementing more integrated (or concentrated, in lack of a better term) in order to make Orbiter more rewarding.

Proponents of gamification here could do that without the need for programming skills.

 

[Longjap]

I don't understand what you want to say here, can you please re-phrase that? Do you mean that people using addons don't have the DUTY to act like they owe the devs something? Or that they don't have the right to act like they DEMAND something? Or something else?

Ok, sorry for my English:

I mean to say it is noble to attend the demand of the players, but it isn't prerequisite to start making an add-on because you do it for yourself. If someone thinks it's worth their time, it's their decision.

So did you already implement an add-on regarding the topic here? If so, why don't you just show it to us? Or do you mean that you perhaps - if everything goes right - maybe eventually create something to give to the community? If the later, then there is no need to "fight" for it here, is it? Just do it.

Yes, development is fun. If you want to do it for the fun of it, by all means, please do it. Don't just talk about it, do it for real.

I'm not a fighter, I'm a lover.
Well my first project is shared and can be Beta tested. So if you could spare some time, I could use some feedback by experienced people to improve my work.
http://www.orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=37569

It's slightly regarding the topic, because the cubesats I made for this inspired me to ask the questions and starting this topic.
I would like them to come "alive" and have more in-depth playing value, next to the flight planning.

You've already heard why it might be a bad idea to start without a plan. No magic will make your ideas appear in the real world. Also, there is nothing developed here (yet). It is all just ideas, dreams, cheap talk. Nobody can give honest development tips on this alone, it can just be some general advise.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this isn't allowed. At best I was hoping people would point me to add-ons that are generally in the same direction so that I could use them and if non-existent maybe could help me develop a plan. Luckily this is starting to happen! :lol: :hide:

If you need some encouragement: yes, your idea is interesting. Please develop an addon out of it, at least 3 other folks here will certainly take a look at it once done (me included). Perhaps start with the MFDTemplate in the /Orbitersdk/samples folder, and adjust it to your needs.

Thanks!

 

[Face]

I mean to say it is noble to attend the demand of the players, but it isn't prerequisite to start making an add-on because you do it for yourself. If someone thinks it's worth their time, it's their decision.

Sure. We don't disagree here. If they think it is not worth their time, it's their decision, too.

It's slightly regarding the topic, because the cubesats I made for this inspired me to ask the questions and starting this topic.
I would like them to come "alive" and have more in-depth playing value, next to the flight planning.

That's perfect. I'd say you go ahead and implement the appropriate feature right into those sats, just as Fred mentioned with his real-time feature in that habitat addon. You could start with writing the information out to a file, so you can check it easily, then proceed to create a dedicated MFD to display it. Or even use the generic callback to directly communicate with the MFD. Provided you already have a DLL project for that sat, that is. If you don't have one, my advise would be to start with one.

EDIT: wait, that's using MS2015 and SC4, right? I think you really should start with a dedicated DLL for it, SC4 is not fully compatible with 2016, anyway. Check out [ame="http://www.orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=5177"]Artlav's SC3 to DLL converter[/ame], perhaps you can use it as a starting point.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this isn't allowed. At best I was hoping people would point me to add-ons that are generally in the same direction so that I could use them and if non-existent maybe could help me develop a plan. Luckily this is starting to happen! :lol: :hide:

If you did something not allowed here, I bet you would have had a nice discussion with the mods already. So chances are good that it is allowed. If it makes sense is something different, though.

But perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. You initially responded to a statement I made regarding Floater's "gamify" theme. Of course I've responded in that context, too, not in the context of your original post.

 

[gattispilot]

Wow. I am really bad at looking for add-ons to make. I try to meet the needs of the users. Which has be working on several projects. ( Interstellar,....). Not saying this is for every one

 

[fred18]

Check out Artlav's SC3 to DLL converter, perhaps you can use it as a starting point.

Small OT:
That's exactly how I started, without knowing anything about c++, I will never thank Artlav enough for that! :thumbup:

 

[Face]

Wow. I am really bad at looking for add-ons to make. I try to meet the needs of the users. Which has be working on several projects. ( Interstellar,....). Not saying this is for every one

I once thought the same way. Not so anymore.
If there is no fun in it, but troubles and anger, just stop it and do something else. Trying to satisfy users of free software is like a bottomless pit.

 

[Longjap]

But perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. You initially responded to a statement I made regarding Floater's "gamify" theme. Of course I've responded in that context, too, not in the context of your original post.

I was a bit annoyed to see all these experienced people putting their energy in disproving another ones dreams and not staying OT and helping my slightly more realistic gamify cheap talk in the right direction.

 

[gattispilot]

I once thought the same way. Not so anymore.
If there is no fun in it, but troubles and anger, just stop it and do something else. Trying to satisfy users of free software is like a bottomless pit.

Thanks. I understand that. It can be over-whiming

 

[Urwumpe]

I once thought the same way. Not so anymore.
If there is no fun in it, but troubles and anger, just stop it and do something else. Trying to satisfy users of free software is like a bottomless pit.

Exactly, you should never do it because somebody else wants you to. Its your free time, your precious time to do what you want and how you want it.

If its only frustration and pressure to meet the demands... stop it. Take one step back, do something smaller, enjoy it.

Its feels much better to be able to play "Breaking the Law" good on your guitar, than get frustrated trying to play "The Hunter" without the needed skills. :dry:

 

[Face]

I was a bit annoyed to see all these experienced people putting their energy in disproving another ones dreams and not staying OT and helping my slightly more realistic gamify cheap talk in the right direction.

Go blame the "Orbiter should be transformed into a game" hijacker. If the experienced people would not have spoken up, you'd be tinkering with monstrous frameworks to JSON serialize your generic game-play objects already. Multiplayed, of course. :lol:

 

[Urwumpe]

I was a bit annoyed to see all these experienced people putting their energy in disproving another ones dreams and not staying OT and helping my slightly more realistic gamify cheap talk in the right direction.

We are soooo evil.

Come on, prove us wrong.

 

[Longjap]

Thanks. I understand that. It can be over-whiming

No pressure from me dude. Only make that SLS crawler if you're having fun doing it.

 

[gattispilot]

No pressure from me dude. Only make that SLS crawler if you're having fun doing it.

I never factor fun into it for me It is a learning experience

 

[Longjap]

We are soooo evil.

Come on, prove us wrong.

No need, I know you're all a bunch of cold hearted, elitist bastards.