Idea to make orbiter more rewarding

[Longjap]

I have an idea I like to share and I'm wondering if someone has done it before. I was on my way to Enceladus with a satellite and although the process of getting there and finally getting the view once arrived in Orbiter 2016 is awesome as it is, this was still a moment I was looking at my "dead" satellite and wishing it to be alive and start gathering data.

Satellites are send on their way because scientists want to know something. I know very little compared to scientists. All the data that already has been gathered would still be new to me.

Now it's easy to look up the Wikipedia page of Enceladus and see what this body is made of, what the atmosphere is like, temperature etc. etc.
But what's the fun in that?

The idea is if I want to know something about a planet, I'll sent a satellite and look up Wiki this way. I would like to download that data through my "instruments" and have it displayed in orbiter. The play and learn value of orbiter gets another dimension.

Now I can't be the first one to think of this so is there something like this out there? I can imagine such an add-on needs a database of the scientific data of all the planets and moons to get the data from when in game.
And a lot data is already in the game of course.

Curious what you think of this.

 

[jedidia]

I think someonw once made a browser MFD, which would be a good starting point, since that's essentially what you need.

 

[Longjap]

I think someonw once made a browser MFD, which would be a good starting point, since that's essentially what you need.

Yeah, I've heard of that. It might be useful to look into that. But I think it doesn't require to be online. I'm thinking about making a database file with the basic characteristics of the planets and moons as far as we know now.

So for instance the physical characteristics, the surface temperature, and the atmospheric characteristics. To gather the corresponding data you'll have to activate a certain instrument on the satellite which is capable of gathering said data.

I think it might require a code that detects if certain conditions are true before you are able to gather it. Such as the distance of the spacecraft relative to the body, if the instrument is facing the right way etc.

Then activate the instrument through an MFD, and it will look in the file for the corresponding data and produce it on your screen. Do you think this is possible?

 

[Floater]

Yeah... All the time I have very similar idea, but at the same time a bit "wider". (by the way it is quite impossible that no one had have it before me, although I didn't come across it on this forum yet)

The idea is: Orbiter should be transformed into a game.

And now: what each computer game is about?
The computer game is about interaction between the player and its surroundings. So the surroundings should be generally more interactive that they are now.

There are some elements needed to achieve this goal:

1. object to object collision detection (interaction is far better if you can touch the object than if you can only look at it)
2. multiplayer
3. living environment, which means for example:
- expeditions that needs supplies
- bases that needs supplies and building materials
- factories and mines which produce them
- people, who want to travel from place to place
- machines who can change the surroundings and establish new bases or expand those that are already established

Orbiter is in fact very close to all of these requirements (maybe despite the multiplayer): existing addons - mainly UCGO and UMMU - can be easily utilized to build the environment from point 3, even in conjunction with some Lua scripting only.

The scientific database mentioned by Longjap is also part of this idea, because of some reasons:

1. It will make the Orbiter world more real-looking (imagine that all of the decorative 'scientific' MFD's onboard Arrow freighter or Azure rover are now interactive, have sense and you can browse them and learn from them).
2. It will make Orbiter world more complex
3. This database, in conjunction with scientific instruments, could be used as the starting point for scientific missions (in addition to cargo and passenger missions)
4. Implementing scientific instruments adds another degree of interaction between the player and the environment.

 

[jedidia]

2. multiplayer

I wouldn't consider that a necessity. In fact, I would consider it a hindrance, but if you want to go that way, there is in fact a multiplayer add-on for orbiter.

3. living environment, which means for example:

Many people have tried, and failed because they underestimated the insane amount of work required to build a persistent, interactive environment on top of orbiter. Basically you have a graphics and physics engine, everything else you need to build on top of that.

Orbiter should be transformed into a game.

I'm having that dream for a decade now, and am actively working towards it for half as long. I'm taking the long view on this, and probably won't have any comprehensive results for another decade.

You're welcome to beat me to it

Also, what you have to be aware of is that you're only targeting a subset of the Orbiter Community. Orbiter is used in a very wide number of ways, and most people are in fact very happy to not have a game propped on top of orbiter.

 

[Longjap]

@Floater

Yes, adding game elements is exactly what I was thinking about. Indeed UMMU and UCGO are already along this path. I like the idea of keeping my astronauts alive and planning sufficient cargo for trips. And your ideas are tantalizing.

To a degree you can create your own game of course. For example planning a manned Mars with realistic spacecraft. Add UMMU to it and UCGO and you have a nice challenge.

But specifically the science part isn't developed in depth. I was also thinking about something along the lines of a mission journal where you gather your experiences and discoveries. As a summary of your achievements.

 

[Urwumpe]

I'm having that dream for a decade now, and am actively working towards it for half as long. I'm taking the long view on this, and probably won't have any comprehensive results for another decade.

Exactly. One can't do it. There should be something like a "scientific method" for Orbiter add-ons, leading step by step to more complex add-ons build on the efforts of previous add-ons.

But seriously: I doubt I will see this happen in my lifetime.

 

[Artlav]

What about a simple "scan the planet" mfd?
That is more or less what i do in Spaceway - once you get close enough, you can "scan" a body and get all the details about it.

 

[Longjap]

What about a simple "scan the planet" mfd?
That is more or less what i do in Spaceway - once you get close enough, you can "scan" a body and get all the details about it.

Yep, that's what I like. Maybe a little more complexity but not much. I don't need a complete overhaul, just a nice addition to give a feel of discovery or something added to the learning experience. And I don't think it is impossible in this way.

 

[Floater]

Hello jedidia. Nice to meet you again

In fact, I would consider it a hindrance

Imagine the missions in which you have to accomplish the goals together with other players... Radio transmissions between UMMU's... ATC... Another ships flying around You, docking, undocking, transferring cargo...
Elite IV in Orbiter - strictly speaking.

Many people have tried, and failed

So now it is a time for me to try and fail :thumbup:
For now I have started with the Lua: I'm building some challenges on Mars currently. Then I am planning to transform it into a C++ addon...

Also, what you have to be aware of is that you're only targeting a subset of the Orbiter Community.

Yes, I am aware of it. But I hope that once created such an addon will enlarge the Community... And if - some day - the game is created, it will enlarge the Community snowballing (because it will lure in ordinary players, not only faithful contributors).
BTW: Making a game on top does not exclude other forms of usage.

And your ideas are tantalizing.

Oh, yes, oh yes!!! They are intended to be

There should be something like a "scientific method" for Orbiter add-ons

I think that some addons should be incorporated into Orbiters core. UMMU, UCGO & Sound are good examples. Once incorporated they could be developed together and it would be much easier to keep them up-to-date.
(believe me: without UCGO I'm suffering )


--------------
Google translator is my ally... and the powerful ally it is :blink:

 

[Ripley]

...But specifically the science part isn't developed in depth...

And what if it gets developed? Should we all turn into armchair-scientists? There are sure some highly qualified community members, but many of us are more interested in the orbital mechanics side of Orbiter.

I mean, if the atmosphere of planet "X" is made of, say, x% of methane and y% of chloridric acid? Or whatever else? If the surface of another moon is made of silicium, of iron, of...meatballs, what should I do with that gathered data? What could I use it for?
If it just appears on my MFDs for the "immersion" factor, then it's just as the Arrow Freighter already does, with its clever contextual system of random images loaded on roof screens.

 

[jedidia]

Imagine the missions in which you have to accomplish the goals together with other players...

Not appealing to me, sorry. I have to solve enough problems together with other people, when I play I don't want to bother with all that messy stuff. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I play. But that's just grumpy old me

So now it is a time for me to try and fail

That's a healthy attitude. Best of luck!

BTW: Making a game on top does not exclude other forms of usage.

Of course not. But people that attempt to develop things like that often expect too much support, and get frustrated when they realise that the probably larger part of the community isn't really all that interested. I made that note in order for you to better be able to manage your own expectations.

And if - some day - the game is created, it will enlarge the Community snowballing (because it will lure in ordinary players, not only faithful contributors)

Improbable. Orbiter is too much of a hardcore sim to really be appealing to most gamers. You might draw in some that are generally into sims and find orbiters lack of "direction" tough to deal with, but I don't think you'd be able to appeal to people not already playing simulations. Again, managing your expectations is the key to long breath... which you'll need.

 

[Longjap]

And what if it gets developed? Should we all turn into armchair-scientists? There are sure some highly qualified community members, but many of us are more interested in the orbital mechanics side of Orbiter.

I mean, if the atmosphere of planet "X" is made of, say, x% of methane and y% of chloridric acid? Or whatever else? If the surface of another moon is made of silicium, of iron, of...meatballs, what should I do with that gathered data? What could I use it for?
If it just appears on my MFDs for the "immersion" factor, then it's just as the Arrow Freighter already does, with its clever contextual system of random images loaded on roof screens.

Well we're armchair astronauts also.

Let me set things straight: It was not meant as critique at all. I can ramble all night about how great Orbiter is. It's just meant as an addition, like all other community developed add-ons.

Like I said, my idea is to make a satellite to come alive. A bit. To some it might seem very boring and already known information to discover if a moon is made of meatballs but for me it isn't. :lol: You have to think of it like an explain like I'm 5 satellite.

I've learned so much about space travel and orbital mechanics during the years of Orbiter I thought it might be fun to expand a humble bit in the planetary science side of things.

I'm not familiar with the Arrow Freighter, I'm going to have a look. Are these images and info related to your position in the solar system?

Edit: Example; you want to know the composition of the atmosphere of a certain planet. It requires to manoeuvre a specific craft though the atmosphere with a scoop device deployed. Only then it will give you the info. It also gives you a reason to set up specific manoeuvres.

 

[Floater]

@jedidia

(...)expect too much support, and get frustrated when they realise(...)

Firstly I am here to play and have fun. But I'm finding contributing also a fun, so I will try it.

Maybe you remember 1000 IMS related PM's from me ... at least I've succeeded eventually and had fun with Your magnificent addon too... but my own plan here is divided into separate goals and if I find some of them to hard to achieve or the degree of interest or/and support to small, I can always limit myself and still accomplish something.

Orbiter is too much of a hardcore sim to really be appealing to most gamers.

I'm taking into account that Elite IV and Star Citizen are on the run now. Both of these games will cause people interest in the space fly, but at the same time each of these games is nothing more than yet another "cars in the space" arena. Some players may find themselves bored with just struggling around and firing after a year or two of playing.

And there are ways to make the Orbiter not so hard to learn as it is now.

I made that note in order for you to better be able to manage your own expectations.

And I am grateful as I always appreciate Your advice

 

[Urwumpe]

I think that some addons should be incorporated into Orbiters core. UMMU, UCGO & Sound are good examples. Once incorporated they could be developed together and it would be much easier to keep them up-to-date.
(believe me: without UCGO I'm suffering )

You have no idea how strongly I disagree there. Those are actually the best example how you can ruin many add-ons by closed source components maintained by a single person on whose real life you then strongly depend.

Just to remind you: Should DanSteph ever get fed up with Orbiter, those older add-ons will eventually be broken. Maybe somebody can reverse-engineer compatible DLLs. But those add-ons will be locked to the components they can't replace.

Yes, they are comfortable, Yes, they add a lot of functionality to Orbiter. But no, they are not helping you develop better add-ons for the future.

In the orbiter core, those components would be like the input mapping, autopilot handling or the NAV Handle. Fixed. (But the autopilot handling got a bit tamed now)

 

[turtle91]

I like the idea.
I mean...you have send a realistic probe to a far destination target.
You spent so much work on how to get there (i.e. multiple slingshots..many low thrust MCCs etc)
So...after all this..you finally arrived at your destination...and then...what doing next...?
In my case...I normaly hit CTRL+S, leave Orbiter and open Wikipedia for some basic information about the orbiting body.

But, if there might be an addon, which just provides basic information about the target, that would be great.

I.e. it could work like this:
-vessel needs to be at a close distance to the target (for moons and planets.. lets say 200 km, for gas giants a "bit" higher(i.e 8000-12000 km)"
-if running on solar-arrays, the vessel needs to be in sunlight to "send" the data to a remote vessel.
-if remote vessel is i.e. on earth, it must face the the probe to be able to recieve the data.
-data-transmission should be slow/fast...depends on probe-postion and capability (maybe could be set in a per vessel CFG-file)

So in short words, just an extension to the already developed great MT4 from the ELIS-addon, developed by Fred. ([ame="http://orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=6019"]ELIS - MT4[/ame]).

And...btw:

I'm not familiar with the Arrow Freighter, I'm going to have a look. Are these images and info related to your position in the solar system?

Yes :thumbup:

 

[Floater]

Yes, they are comfortable, Yes, they add a lot of functionality to Orbiter. But no, they are not helping you develop better add-ons for the future.

If the Orbiter was only about making a new addons - so: for addon developers - you would be right.

The fact is, however, that some people - me for example - want to Play. So if there is an upgrade - new Orbiter version released - all players should say "Wow! We now have a better Orbiter to play with. Lets roll !!".
But in the situation, when half of the Orbiter functionality is embedded inside various addons which can be updated after half a year or so... or can be never updated as well, players say "Aha... new Orbiter has been released - now we have to wait and be patient...:blink:"

Someone can even say: "Why to publish a new Orbiter version at all? It changes nothing... If you are bored off the current version you can always download a beta".

Such a situation is a good way to kill the interest to death...

 

[Ripley]

...Someone can even say: "Why to publish a new Orbiter version at all?...

Well, if 3D terrain and gorgeous HiRes textures are not enough for you to justify a new release...

 

[jedidia]

Such a situation is a good way to kill the interest to death...

Orbiter is now in active development for over a decade, and still has a strong community... There are not many freeware projects that survived for this long. So lack of interest really isn't a problem.

 

[birdmanmike]

I would hate to get in a basement type argument - but for me, Orbiter is not a "game" and I don't "play" it. It's a (spaceflight) simulator. I also use FSX and P3D - but don't "play" them, but simulate flying aircraft.

And I've been simulating on all three for some good years . . . 'nuff said? There's more than enough "games" to play, after all . . .