How would a war between N.Korea, China and USA be fought?

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Iberville

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I don't know if Germany is better that the US or whatever, but I do know that North Korea is a dying regime that is crying to the world to get attention. It's far from sure that China would choose this little extremist country instead of its bigger business partner.
 

Ghostrider

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Wars are not fought solely in the battlefield. Sure, our soldiers did an incredible job, but the whole war was mismanaged by Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. None of them wanted to commit the resources necessary to defeating the North, so the war became stagnate and unpopular.

It's far worse than that. Johnson was more of an enemy to the US Armed Forces than the NVA could be: he not only mismanaged it, he micromanaged the war. The USN had one of the very best attack aircraft back then, the A-6 Intruder, which could strike with precision in all weather conditions and what was it used for? To hit strategically unimportant targets and "suspected truck depots". Phantom pilots couldn't use their Sparrow missiles because they had to visually ID the enemy aircraft first, thus negating the advantage their BVR weapons gave them and ending up having to dogfight it out with planes that were far more agile and had cannons - while the Navy F-4 had not. Soldiers were sent piecemeal into the jungle to slug it out with guerrillas who knew the environment far better.

Under those conditions, one could lose a war against snowflakes...

Then there's always this little fact that seems never to be considered: all of the Western world's military (and Russia as well) is geared towards fighting an industrialized enemy. Our weapons are made to destroy equipment, vehicles, emplacements, factories and so on. It's all well and dandy when you're up against this kind of enemy, but what do you do when your enemy makes its equipment out of scraps? What do you do when their main resource is their own population? Moreover, what pressure you can exert on such an enemy, since no matter what you do their situation can't become worse? Cut the power, they might not even notice it. They're not like us, a modern Western nation would be forced to surrender if its power supplies and transport systems were threatened. They're already at the deep end, it can only get better for them.
 

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Now to say that you would wish the "hawks" would die first when you are relating to the U.S., if you would ever say that here I can guarantee you would not be seen again.

Just curious, whom did you say that to? My brain is boiling in futile attempts to unveil the secret meaning of this sentence.

It is just that certain individuals all around the world love to hate the American Imperialists. :lol:

You know hate is generated by jealousy and envy. Many countries wish that they could be just like or similar to the United States of America. Although all my family lives in Brazil and Italy, I am an American citizen and take pride in that. I love my heritage of Portuguese, Italian, and German, but those countries will never be like the U.S. Same thing with my mom. She lived 17 years in Brazil and 9 in Italy. She is more American and wants to be more American than anything else. She is fluent in 6 languages and is working on her Masters degree in International Relations.

I appreciate the work that MY military does for our country and I am saying it is neither easy or simple. You on the other hand are criticizing everything about the U.S., but you know how bad Germany is too? Don't even start with that.

Okay, look... I believe you are trying to picture me a revenge-seeker. If you mean that I regret breaking up of the SU, the you partly are correct. I want some of the past its capabilities back, because much of the baby was thrown away with the bathwater, so to speak - and now every sane person has to admit that (which is, for example, best evident when you compare the old Soviet space industry with today's Russian one). My preference, however, is building things anew rather then restoring them, and this, together with my appreciation of the universal Human Rights, makes me a progressive thinker - at least, in my own eyes.

And, come on, I wouldn't even dislike the idea of the Global Pax Americana - it might not be the worst of possible worlds. But from historical observation it becomes obvious that bloodless establishing of such thing is impossible. The US army is the busiest fighting force in the world, and no one got involved in more conflicts and "police actions" throughout the 20th century. It's natural when muscle growths with proper training.

But my problem with it is when your muscle thinking overwhelms your realization of how the world is geared and why it is not always right to disturb a fragile balance. Somehow a forced spreading of democracy had become a long living foreign policy for the USA. However, I have no idea why, and I never seen a justification if this idea. Shall the USA feel more comfortable if only democratic countries are left around? Is the democratic form of government supposed to guarantee that a country with it would never have conflicts of interest with the USA? Does it automatically make people to honor human rights, money flow right ways, roses grow and birds sing?

Whatever the justification is, the idea of active intervention in the world's affairs means intervention, and quite often, by using force. You can say it's really necessary for a power that represents itself as the world's cop, but a cop has to abide to law and guard justice, otherwise he is no different from a bandit. A work of a cop is meaningless when there is no a judge and a law accepted by all. This is by far is not looking like what we have in the international politics. The only working international justice institutions have only developed in Western Europe and effective range of their decisions is quite limited. The UN could pretend to be the universal lawmaker and judge, but in fact it's a discussion club of adversaries with contradictory views.

So in fact, every nation is still on its own in the current international environment and must seek its own way of adaptation to it. The large disturbances the USA tend to create on the international arena make some others oppose. Opposition produce America haters who (you are right) in plenty across the countries which are not on the same camp with yours (or not in everything). I had years of experience arguing with our own hawks, but very often I can produce no arguments to align with simple facts. If I ever have to choose between American and Russian hawks, I'd pick Russian, because they at least pledge to protect me (often from the dangers I don't deem to be ones). This is how a mature sane person must make her or his choice. I might not like it, but I have to make it. And by the way, we live in free information exchange age, and all what American ultra-patriots write in Washington Post or similar papers, publish on their blogs and discussed on forums becomes immediately available to international community - and fuels America hatred very well. A source reading something like 'We consider Russia our strategic enemy' and tougher things is just an unbeatable argument for them.

It's interesting, however to see why 'hawks' appear at all. I can understand and even appreciate when a man who have seen an actual action and killed people retains a part of the aggressiveness that helped his survival in the critical situations and transfer this aggressiveness to the peaceful life. But how often such people have problems with law or have their lives destroyed some other ways? Do you really believe that being aggressive can be positive everywhere?

What I don't appreciate is a young male's lust for violence, being trigger happy without even trying to imagine yourself to be shot at, and feeling of a superhuman pumped up with cheat power. If it's a technology that drives you into these dangerous illusions, perhaps you need to consider that wars are not fought and won with superior *fighting* technologies, but rather through strategic planning. Often, you must learn it from tyrants of the past, no matter how you despise them. This art is thousand years old and I can see no ground to believe that US planning is going to be superior to everyone's to the end of time. Relax, and fail. Quite oppositely, I can observe the USA is driving themselves deeper in the thickets of various costly conflicts, not even matter the opinion or intentions of the current governing office. This is more and more looks like losing control over situation and here (yay, I'm finally back on topic! :lol: ) in North Korea there's a chance a straw might break the camel's back.

My recommendation: don't attack NK or provoke it to attack. Just let them rot on within their borders. Whatever tantrums they can make, they'd be empty, like many times in the past.

Ok, 'nuff said...
 
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Cerebus

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Having read through this, it seems to me that some people actually don't understand the one main point of war, people die, always the innocent, ( by innocent I meant that those who die are rarely those who actually order their armies to war), I agree with Siberian Tiger, let North Korea be isolated, but contained, it will collapse as a state, and that will be terrible enough without rashly beginning a conflict who's outcome is uncertain at best.
 

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Having read through this, it seems to me that some people actually don't understand the one main point of war, people die, always the innocent, ( by innocent I meant that those who die are rarely those who actually order their armies to war), I agree with Siberian Tiger, let North Korea be isolated, but contained, it will collapse as a state, and that will be terrible enough without rashly beginning a conflict who's outcome is uncertain at best.

Although it may be difficult to perceive right now, this has actually been the consistent policy of the United States since the end of the Korean War. The only problem is that there is an addendum to this primary policy, which is that the US has expressed a policy of "taking action" when NK steps outside its box. The main trigger of this second part of the US policy toward NK has been Pyongyang's weapons proliferation activities. NK has been a major element of what the US perceives as the most problematic examples of weapon development -- nuclear and ballistic missile technology. For better or worse, right or wrong, that is the simple fact: If NK wasn't selling nuclear and missile technology outside its borders, the US would mainly simply contain NK and ignore it.

Beyond that, NK has engaged in periodic demonstrations of targeted violence in its region, such as the recent torpedoing of the SK naval vessel. These incidents are "manageable" -- after all, there have been dozens of them over the years, and war hasn't broken out. The problem is that the Pyongyang regime's stability decays steadily over the years as more and more of its population ends up in its gulag, and its economy continues to rot. With the military being the only "viable" institution in the country, it would be foolish for SK, Japan, the US and even China to ignore the possibility that the next succession of leadership could trigger a more widespread military "spasm" by the regime.

But, again, the basic policy of the US has been containment with a minimum of actual military action for over 50 years ... a policy that has actually succeeded quite well when judged on the terms of its goals.
 

insanity

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It's far worse than that. Johnson was more of an enemy to the US Armed Forces than the NVA could be: he not only mismanaged it, he micromanaged the war.
True. Johnson was well known for trying to manage the war down to the bullets. It drove almost everyone below him completely nuts too. Domestically, one of our better Presidents but his handling of the Vietnam war was a disaster.

Then there's always this little fact that seems never to be considered: all of the Western world's military (and Russia as well) is geared towards fighting an industrialized enemy.
This 'little' fact has been a massive thorn in our sides for years now. Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Somalia, Afghanistan, and now Iraq have been able to draw a war out with less resources by largely fighting a guerrilla-style campaign. We prepare for symmetrical war, but we continually end up locked in asymmetrical wars until they inevitably stagnate.

Also, while the democratic peace thesis is a prevailing talking-point of modern American foreign policy, we have to recognize that forced democracies are not going to be stable partners in the international world. We also have to acknowledge that we expect material gains by expanding our economic system around the world, often times these gains run counter to democratic notions like liberty and equity before the law.
 

Dickie

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Heh, we were having the same debate this morning - our conclusion was that if things between NK/SK broke down and a real shooting war started, the first consequence would be horrendous loss of life on both sides, military and civilian, pretty much immediately.

Next, if we suppose the US (and whoever else) intervenes, then you'd see the troops/aircraft already in theatre committed and naval task forces arriving on each coast, with associated air and TLAM strikes arriving pretty soon afterwards. If the border remained where it is (i.e neither side advancing which is likely) then there would probably be amphibious landings on NK's coast, reinforced by a massive airlift into SK anything upwards of 24hrs later.

The fighting itself would be hard, with large numbers of casualties on both sides, made all the more difficult by the terrain but ultimately NK almost certainly wouldn't be able to hold out for any considerable length of time.

In summary, it would be bloody, costly in terms of lives and equipment, but doable - the question would be public support for such a war.

However, what if as you say China gets involved? They've got large numbers of modern aircraft, ships and a well equipped army, but most of all - large numbers of modern SSNs, SSKs and SSBNs, even just the threat of which being in the area would throw a massive spanner in the works of any amphibious operations or carrier strike. Supposing even further, they also have large numbers of very capable LPDs and LPHs, and with control of the sea via their submarine force it's only a short hop to SK's coast. During a brief on this earlier in the year, a USN officer said if it ever came to war with the Chinese then "We'll all go over and get our asses kicked together." - which pretty much sums it up.

:cheers:
 

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I'd dispute the idea that China has much mordern military equipment. They have some modern equipment and a lot of semi-modern equipment but nothing up to western standards. Certainly with a mostly conscript army, their training isn't going to be up to western standards either. Janes did a pretty good anaylsis of the outcome of a Chinese attack of Taiwan and concluded that they'd be handed their asses on a platter even without US intervention. Korea would probably turn out to be pretty much the same.

As I've said before though...it's highly doubtful that should NK be foolish enough to laungh a second (suicidal) unprovoked invasion of the south that China would risk it's entire enconomy to come to their aid. China is experiencing phenomical economic growth due in large part to massive exports to the west - something that would dry up in an instant should they support a North Korean war of agression. The only way I see China getting involved would be if the south launched an unprovoked attack on the north - something that isn't going to happen.
 

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No. But can a F-35 or a F-22 conquer a country? The 2003 invasion of Iraq is still a on-going military operation - it lasts already longer than WW2.

It's worth noting that neither the F-35 or the F-22 has ever been deployed into a full-combat setting. Indeed, the closest either has come to a full combat situation is the 4 F-22's deployed during the ongoing operations between South Korean and US Forces. Indeed, I don't think any 5th generation fighter has been deployed in combat operations, though I could be wrong.
 

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I'd dispute the idea that China has much mordern military equipment. They have some modern equipment and a lot of semi-modern equipment but nothing up to western standards...

I'll admit I'm not too swept up on their ground forces, but certainly their naval and air forces are, if not ultra-modern, then at least modern enough to be a significant threat to any Western forces.

I'm just thankful that a full-on conflict with China (at the moment at least) is all hypothetical and remains rather unlikely!
 

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I'll admit I'm not too swept up on their ground forces, but certainly their naval and air forces are, if not ultra-modern, then at least modern enough to be a significant threat to any Western forces.

Depends. They have a few ships that are really the creme de la creme, but the bulk of the fleet is obsolete and still the numbers are pretty low for such a huge coast.
 

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China is also developing a 5th generation fighter, designed to be comparable to the F-22 and in service by 2017-2019.
 

SiberianTiger

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Indeed, I don't think any 5th generation fighter has been deployed in combat operations, though I could be wrong.

Kind of...
orig_1_9eaeb.jpg
 

ddom2006

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Interception of the Tu-45/Bear? There's been a few incidents like that. The F-35 will accompany the Eurofighter Typhoon (4.5 Generation aircraft) in defending Britain's aerospace from such threats and incursions and will replace the Tornado over here. It's not really a combat mission though, as in no hostilities were opened and no missles fired. Merely an interception.
QRA%20Typhoon%202-thumb-450x321-44812.jpg
 
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SiberianTiger

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Interception of the Tu-45/Bear? There's been a few incidents like that. The F-35 will accompany the Eurofighter Typhoon (4.5 Generation aircraft) in defending Britain's aerospace from such threats and incursions and will replace the Tornado over here. It's not really a combat mission though, as in no hostilities were opened and no missles fired. Merely an interception.

Correct, except it's a Tu-95. I heard the game rules are such, if the Bear opens bomb doors, it's get downed. Which never happened, luckily. So it's a kind of a non-combat mission, but with live ordnance (at least, for the fighters certainly).
 

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Correct, except it's a Tu-95. I heard the game rules are such, if the Bear opens bomb doors, it's get downed. Which never happened, luckily. So it's a kind of a non-combat mission, but with live ordnance (at least, for the fighters certainly).

Not sure about the doors, but such opening of doors is generally a sign of hostile intents. There can be other actions which would also permit fire.
 

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Just curious, whom did you say that to? My brain is boiling in futile attempts to unveil the secret meaning of this sentence.



Okay, look... I believe you are trying to picture me a revenge-seeker. If you mean that I regret breaking up of the SU, the you partly are correct. I want some of the past its capabilities back, because much of the baby was thrown away with the bathwater, so to speak - and now every sane person has to admit that (which is, for example, best evident when you compare the old Soviet space industry with today's Russian one). My preference, however, is building things anew rather then restoring them, and this, together with my appreciation of the universal Human Rights, makes me a progressive thinker - at least, in my own eyes.

And, come on, I wouldn't even dislike the idea of the Global Pax Americana - it might not be the worst of possible worlds. But from historical observation it becomes obvious that bloodless establishing of such thing is impossible. The US army is the busiest fighting force in the world, and no one got involved in more conflicts and "police actions" throughout the 20th century. It's natural when muscle growths with proper training.

But my problem with it is when your muscle thinking overwhelms your realization of how the world is geared and why it is not always right to disturb a fragile balance. Somehow a forced spreading of democracy had become a long living foreign policy for the USA. However, I have no idea why, and I never seen a justification if this idea. Shall the USA feel more comfortable if only democratic countries are left around? Is the democratic form of government supposed to guarantee that a country with it would never have conflicts of interest with the USA? Does it automatically make people to honor human rights, money flow right ways, roses grow and birds sing?

Whatever the justification is, the idea of active intervention in the world's affairs means intervention, and quite often, by using force. You can say it's really necessary for a power that represents itself as the world's cop, but a cop has to abide to law and guard justice, otherwise he is no different from a bandit. A work of a cop is meaningless when there is no a judge and a law accepted by all. This is by far is not looking like what we have in the international politics. The only working international justice institutions have only developed in Western Europe and effective range of their decisions is quite limited. The UN could pretend to be the universal lawmaker and judge, but in fact it's a discussion club of adversaries with contradictory views.

So in fact, every nation is still on its own in the current international environment and must seek its own way of adaptation to it. The large disturbances the USA tend to create on the international arena make some others oppose. Opposition produce America haters who (you are right) in plenty across the countries which are not on the same camp with yours (or not in everything). I had years of experience arguing with our own hawks, but very often I can produce no arguments to align with simple facts. If I ever have to choose between American and Russian hawks, I'd pick Russian, because they at least pledge to protect me (often from the dangers I don't deem to be ones). This is how a mature sane person must make her or his choice. I might not like it, but I have to make it. And by the way, we live in free information exchange age, and all what American ultra-patriots write in Washington Post or similar papers, publish on their blogs and discussed on forums becomes immediately available to international community - and fuels America hatred very well. A source reading something like 'We consider Russia our strategic enemy' and tougher things is just an unbeatable argument for them.

It's interesting, however to see why 'hawks' appear at all. I can understand and even appreciate when a man who have seen an actual action and killed people retains a part of the aggressiveness that helped his survival in the critical situations and transfer this aggressiveness to the peaceful life. But how often such people have problems with law or have their lives destroyed some other ways? Do you really believe that being aggressive can be positive everywhere?

What I don't appreciate is a young male's lust for violence, being trigger happy without even trying to imagine yourself to be shot at, and feeling of a superhuman pumped up with cheat power. If it's a technology that drives you into these dangerous illusions, perhaps you need to consider that wars are not fought and won with superior *fighting* technologies, but rather through strategic planning. Often, you must learn it from tyrants of the past, no matter how you despise them. This art is thousand years old and I can see no ground to believe that US planning is going to be superior to everyone's to the end of time. Relax, and fail. Quite oppositely, I can observe the USA is driving themselves deeper in the thickets of various costly conflicts, not even matter the opinion or intentions of the current governing office. This is more and more looks like losing control over situation and here (yay, I'm finally back on topic! :lol: ) in North Korea there's a chance a straw might break the camel's back.

My recommendation: don't attack NK or provoke it to attack. Just let them rot on within their borders. Whatever tantrums they can make, they'd be empty, like many times in the past.

Ok, 'nuff said...
That post wasn't directed to you.

---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

I just think if war would start that we could create a secondary goal of liberating NK which gives more power to SK and the NK civilians that dread ever day will gladly support the liberation. China wouldn't have to worried about having NK damaging their relations with other countries because of their actions.
 
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