News Horrific tornado strikes Oklahoma.

[Kyle]

No caption needed.. wow.

 

[Cosmic Penguin]

No caption needed.. wow.

Apparently this is from the equally destructive tornado at Joplin in May 2011 - although similar things did happen at OKC this time.

I wonder if the residents got more time to evacuate to safety this time, given the extent of destruction was at least at the same class as the May 2011 Joplin tornado and the April 2011 Tuscaloosa tornado, yet the number of fatalities was much lower (and much less than once feared)....

 

[ADSWNJ]

I must say I was surprised not to see a tornado bunker under that school, given it's built absolutely in harm's way. I expected that building codes there would all mandate bunkers, given all the movies you see of families going to their home bunkers in the nick of time, etc.

As to the building materials though - I think once you get into that EF5 range, your building material is largely irrelevant, unless you are building in a granite-lined cave.

 

[Kyle]

I must say I was surprised not to see a tornado bunker under that school, given it's built absolutely in harm's way. I expected that building codes there would all mandate bunkers, given all the movies you see of families going to their home bunkers in the nick of time, etc.

As to the building materials though - I think once you get into that EF5 range, your building material is largely irrelevant, unless you are building in a granite-lined cave.

Correct, an EF-5 is powerful enough to send wood through concrete and scorch the grass. Very little can withstand it.

 

[Linguofreak]

I must say I was surprised not to see a tornado bunker under that school, given it's built absolutely in harm's way. I expected that building codes there would all mandate bunkers, given all the movies you see of families going to their home bunkers in the nick of time, etc.

In Dallas we have issues with shallow bedrock that prevent basements and storm cellars from being very common. There may be similar issues in Oklahoma city.

 

[sitha241]

No caption needed.. wow.

:OMG::hide: I cant imagine how is that possible..and in my country was a war and I saw result of that destruction on roads and houses..
It just passed trough it like it is from butter :/

 

[Urwumpe]

In Dallas we have issues with shallow bedrock that prevent basements and storm cellars from being very common. There may be similar issues in Oklahoma city.

You could still do shallow storm bunkers there. Or pay more money and remove the bed rock.

But the biggest problem is the general lack of any building code there, that could at least help reducing the debris in the air.

And what I wonder: could shallow stone walls help reducing the wind velocity near the surface and stop debris early? Maybe just 80 cm high, just a metal cage filled with stones.

Such walls in the 2m high form are used for bases in Afghanistan for limiting the damage of suicide bombers, surrounding the checkpoint at the entrance of such a base.

If made lower, they would not topple that easily, but could still have some aerodynamic effect.

 

[Staiduk]

:OMG::hide: I cant imagine how is that possible..and in my country was a war and I saw result of that destruction on roads and houses..
It just passed trough it like it is from butter :/

I was directly - and tragically - involved in the war in your country; Sitha. The devastation was terrible but it was caused by men and our pitifully tiny machines. We can be mean, evil, destructive and cruel but that's nothing compared to the vast indifferent power of the Earth herself. There is no Human agency that can come close to matching the raw power of Gaia - or the power of God; depending on your viewpoint. But reading these comments I feel a question forming; one I'll add to this thread in a separate response; just as soon as I can properly frame it.

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ----------

EDIT - DELETING THE QUESTION - don't know how to delete the whole post. Sorry; Edward was asking. He's great for talking and asking but not much for research - a simple comparison of US and European tornado data would have given the answer. Sorry about that. At least I'm getting faster at catching Edward's posts.

 

[Codz]

Europe doesn't have the unique situation of warm moist air and cool dry air meeting in a relatively flat area. This (with other factors) creates near perfect conditions for tornadoes if a severe thunderstorm passes through.

 

[Urwumpe]

Europe doesn't have the unique situation of warm moist air and cool dry air meeting in a relatively flat area. This (with other factors) creates near perfect conditions for tornadoes if a severe thunderstorm passes through.

Yes, but Europe isn't all Alps. It is much flatter in many regions than the Tornado Alley (because of the ice ages, which had more effect here than in the middle west).

What causes the lower number of Tornados in Europe is simply that we lack continental climate here. The extremely cold air during spring is rare here, while warm moist air and warm dry air is pretty common here. Such extremely chaotic weather conditions as you have in Tornado Alley (or Dixie Alley) during spring every year, happen only for a few days in May-June here.

Just on May 15, we had a super cell passing through this region, but without any signs of ground contact. Was still a pretty impressive sight, had a good view of its southern flank from my workplace.

Here is a thread by a local storm chaser of this cell:

http://www4.wetterspiegel.de/stormchaser/wbb3/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=15006

Here are some other photos of it, half an hour earlier, but you can only see a small wall cloud there, nothing spectacular.

http://www.tornadoliste.de/130515schwicheldt.htm

Currently it is rather cold and wet here, but should the high pressure zone over the Atlantic weaken or move away to the west, we will likely get good conditions for tornados again here.

 

[sitha241]

I was directly - and tragically - involved in the war in your country; Sitha. The devastation was terrible but it was caused by men and our pitifully tiny machines. We can be mean, evil, destructive and cruel but that's nothing compared to the vast indifferent power of the Earth herself. There is no Human agency that can come close to matching the raw power of Gaia - or the power of God; depending on your viewpoint. But reading these comments I feel a question forming; one I'll add to this thread in a separate response; just as soon as I can properly frame it.

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ----------

EDIT - DELETING THE QUESTION - don't know how to delete the whole post. Sorry; Edward was asking. He's great for talking and asking but not much for research - a simple comparison of US and European tornado data would have given the answer. Sorry about that. At least I'm getting faster at catching Edward's posts.

I know I read it in your thread few days ago..
What ever you wanted to ask you can..I am not into that stuff..
War is what happens when people are ignorant and stupid.. :tiphat:

 

[N_Molson]

No caption needed.. wow.

Is it me or a piece of wood pierced through a cement block ? :blink:

 

[Kyle]

Is it me or a piece of wood pierced through a cement block ? :blink:

Not you.

 

[Urwumpe]

Is it me or a piece of wood pierced through a cement block ? :blink:

Not just you. :blink:

 

[Artlav]

That "cement block" does not appear to be too strong.
Not sure about american building codes, but here these often crumble if an SUV rolls over it to park on a lawn.

A heavy pointed stick going faster than an arrow (100 m/s winds in EF5?) should go through something like that without a problem.
Think ballista or the original catapult - similar stick going slower went through an armoured man or through light masonry easily.

 

[Kyle]

That "cement block" does not appear to be too strong.
Not sure about american building codes, but here these often crumble if an SUV rolls over it to park on a lawn.

A heavy pointed stick going faster than an arrow (100 m/s winds in EF5?) should go through something like that without a problem.
Think ballista or the original catapult - similar stick going slower went through an armoured man or through light masonry easily.

Here they wrap SUV's around trees like paper.

 

[Staiduk]

I know I read it in your thread few days ago..
What ever you wanted to ask you can..I am not into that stuff..
War is what happens when people are ignorant and stupid.. :tiphat:

Hi Sitha - sorry; no - again I'd forgotten that posting a following post is added to the last one; it had to do with the relative strength/frequency of tornados - and thus public awareness - between North America and Europe. A set of data points I can easily look up on my own without bothering anyone.

---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 AM ----------

Yes, but Europe isn't all Alps. It is much flatter in many regions than the Tornado Alley (because of the ice ages, which had more effect here than in the middle west).

What causes the lower number of Tornados in Europe is simply that we lack continental climate here. The extremely cold air during spring is rare here, while warm moist air and warm dry air is pretty common here. Such extremely chaotic weather conditions as you have in Tornado Alley (or Dixie Alley) during spring every year, happen only for a few days in May-June here.

Just on May 15, we had a super cell passing through this region, but without any signs of ground contact. Was still a pretty impressive sight, had a good view of its southern flank from my workplace.

Here is a thread by a local storm chaser of this cell:

http://www4.wetterspiegel.de/stormchaser/wbb3/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=15006

Here are some other photos of it, half an hour earlier, but you can only see a small wall cloud there, nothing spectacular.

http://www.tornadoliste.de/130515schwicheldt.htm

Currently it is rather cold and wet here, but should the high pressure zone over the Atlantic weaken or move away to the west, we will likely get good conditions for tornados again here.

That was basically the gist of the question - Given Europe's similar climate and terrain to North America in regions my limited knowledge of meteorology (just what one needs to fly) is a little surprised that Europe doesn't get hammered like we occasionally do. The American Mid-west is a unique meteorological environment; huge, flat and moist without the energy sinks of large bodies of water. It can generate huge storms. But I was thinking of the lower regions of Europe (my geography is shockingly limited) heading towards Africa; and eastward into Russia and the 'Stans. I was surprised there doesn't seem to be sufficient terrain to generate really big multicellular storms - tornado generators - like the Mid-west can.
I kind of wonder if the paticular shape of North America - basically a wedge - is the key reason why such giant storms form smack dab in the middle of her. The cold dry air from the North mixing with the warm (often) dry air from the West and the warm wet air from the East. Just curious - my met knowledge just about allows me to identify an occluded front on a weather map. :rofl:

 

[Urwumpe]

That was basically the gist of the question - Given Europe's similar climate and terrain to North America in regions my limited knowledge of meteorology (just what one needs to fly) is a little surprised that Europe doesn't get hammered like we occasionally do. The American Mid-west is a unique meteorological environment; huge, flat and moist without the energy sinks of large bodies of water. It can generate huge storms. But I was thinking of the lower regions of Europe (my geography is shockingly limited) heading towards Africa; and eastward into Russia and the 'Stans. I was surprised there doesn't seem to be sufficient terrain to generate really big multicellular storms - tornado generators - like the Mid-west can.
I kind of wonder if the paticular shape of North America - basically a wedge - is the key reason why such giant storms form smack dab in the middle of her. The cold dry air from the North mixing with the warm (often) dry air from the West and the warm wet air from the East. Just curious - my met knowledge just about allows me to identify an occluded front on a weather map. :rofl:

You have to consider that Tornado Alley is also much further away from any ocean, as you can ever get in Europe. The rocky mountains funnel cold air to the mid west easily - cold air that only rarely exists in Europe. For us to get Tornados, we have to get a completely different situation in the European weather, than you need in the USA. For really big outbreaks in central Europe, we would need really cold air from Russia combined with dry hot Sahara winds from the south and warm and very moist air from the west. And Central Europe itself has to be heated already far enough for allowing the turbulent air to form. Something that exists like that only rarely.

Usually it is exactly the mild climate of Europe, that makes us such a pleasant place to live, that prevents big Tornado activity. The gulf stream heats us even in the deepest winter, storms from the Atlantic bring lots of rain, and such rainy weather also pushes the cold air away. It usually can't mix in the same way as in the USA.

An area, that could see 25 tornadoes every year in the USA, would only see maybe 4 in Europe in the same time.


This map shows where tornadoes occur likely:

It is from that source, it also explains a lot of the right mixture for tornadoes:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/severeweather/tornadoes.html

 

[TMac3000]

War is what happens when people are ignorant and stupid..

I'd dispute that. People with Harvard degrees have started wars. The problem is smart people who are so damn callous that they treat war like just any other policy option, instead of a matter of last resort to be used when every other avenue is closed.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 AM ----------

Oh, don't misunderstand me. Preemptive strikes have their place too. If the other guy is fueling his missiles, or moving tanks to the border, you might not have any time to determine his intentions, or try to engage in diplomacy That's why we had the Hotline. When the time needed to react exceeds your potential warning time, you hit first. Israel will tell you that

 

[Urwumpe]

Simpler said: It is always better to fight on the terroritory of the enemy.