Science Higgs Boson found?

[Keatah]

Probably when they come up with a new theory that requires an even more exotic and difficult-to-detect particle. It's just how mainstream science is.

 

[Ghostrider]

One thing I do wonder is, when will people stop referring to the Higgs Boson as the "God Particle"?

Yeah. Shouldn't it be called a "Jehovaon" or something like that?:lol:

 

[garyoptica]

Is gravity really a field or something different?

Gravity has remained the biggest mystery of our understanding of the universe
and although the weakest of the five principal forces it has the combined power
to keep galaxies from throwing billions of stars into space.

work at the new LHC has been aimed at hoping to find the proof needed
needed that gravity is a field and therefore linked to a particle, the
theorised Higgs Boson, but are we correst in assuming that gravity
is indeed a field force?

The pre-cursor observation that lead Higgs into believing that Gravity might be a field is that with many experiments with particles the mass is impossible to detect unless objects are in motion and this also falls in with Einsteins
conclusion that inetia acts like a mirror in behavior to gravity which in itself is
mass in motion.

Does a mass have inertia at rest relative to an observer? indeed not
but of course it could have movement relative to another observer
or framework and thus have increased energy that might not be detectable
to the first observer?

I could go on but will retire for now.

 

[boogabooga]

Anyone remember an old science fiction short story called "The Jaunt"?

In this story, physicists and engineers finally were able to build a teleporter. But there was one problem--when they first tested it on animals, i.e. a bird, the bird would pass through fine, but upon reappearance on the other portal, the bird would fall over and drop dead. They tried and tried to figure out what's wrong but they never did. However, they found an interim solution--put the animal/human to sleep, and it actually worked. They just woke up the subject upon reappearance.

Then one day this boy who was about to go to Mars, skipped the sleeping injection and jumped into the teleporter...and he found out WHY you needed to be asleep. Even though the trip to Mars was only a mere split second when using the teleporter, your EXPERIENCE of being INSIDE the teleporter limbo was BILLIONS of YEARS...that's BILLIONS of YEARS of SHEER BOREDOM...it's described to be like looking at static on a TV screen...for BILLIONS of years...and thus when the kid emerged, he was so shocked at the sudden change in scenery that he had a heart attack...fell over and died, like the bird.



-RODION

Shouldn't it be the opposite? (i.e. time dilation). Instantaneous for the person being transported but a long time for the outside.

 

[RisingFury]

Probably when they come up with a new theory that requires an even more exotic and difficult-to-detect particle. It's just how mainstream science is.

Mainstream science? I don't know if I should :lol: or :facepalm:, so I'll just do both.


This thread is full of scientific ignorance, of people who read Wikipedia and toss around big words without knowing what they mean and of statements of high ego to knowledge ratio, but this takes the cake.

 

[Keatah]

@Rising Fury - expect strange stupid stuff to come to discussion when sci-fi gets involved. The stranger the better. IMHO.

There's mainstream science, where a student goes through the education machine and nestles into a cushy job, and sits around and theorizes. Poisoned and contaminated by 200-year old dichotomy. Then you have the one in 500 million "school-system-failure" student that comes up with something totally earth-shattering that changes the world.

All this "big science" is just that, BIG SCIENCE. Numbers and equations get pushed around, papers written, and nothing really ever comes of those activities. Papers get referenced by other papers and eventually collect dust on a shelf, or bit-rot themselves away into obscurity.

I think different than the mainstream science majors and can see that the existing scientific "establishment" is on a dead path.

Now, all that aside - If time dilation happened in the story as we would theorize in real-life then we wouldn't have a story to begin with! Nor would anyone be around to read it in the first place. The Earth would by then, have fallen into the sun and be sucked into the core.

All good authors will tell you that sci-fi works best when you don't analyze the technical stuff in too much detail. You have to be willing to suspend belief or perhaps ignore one glaringly obvious impossibility.

I find the whole Jaunt story intriguing. Because the essence of the intelligence being transported or shot across the room is the only thing that seems to experience and suffer from the effects of eternity. What was depicted as, experiencing a time length of 3 billion years?

 

[jedidia]

expect strange stupid stuff to come to discussion when sci-fi gets involved. The stranger the better. IMHO.

Problem is, this was supposed to be a science thread, not a sci-fi thread...

 

[n72.75]

You could argue how instantaneous it would seem to the teleported subject, but as the act of measuring the phase of the subject particles destroys them, I would say not so much instantaneous as rather murder.

I love the fact that we can talk about instantaneousness as something other than an absolute ...

 

[Fizyk]

Numbers and equations get pushed around, papers written, and nothing really ever comes of those activities.

Nothing would ever come without those activities.

The biggest discoveries in science were possible, because the scientists had enough data from activities you consider pointless, and they could see new patterns in this data. Without this data, there would be no patterns to see and no discoveries.

Then you have the one in 500 million "school-system-failure" student that comes up with something totally earth-shattering that changes the world.

Name one person that made a great scientific discovery without receiving proper education in the field in which they made it, or some similar field (I think there were discoveries in mathematics that were made by physicists, and vice versa - though I'm not 100% sure of it, actually).

 

[Eccentrus]

Fizyk, well, generally I support your argument, but you must remember Michael Faraday, who received little formal education, and only has his luck when he presented his notes to Humphry Davy, who later inherited his position to Faraday, but then again this is in the old days, when such talents can rarely be put to attention had they not born in a well-off family, which I presume only happens in the worse of the third world in the modern days.

 

[jedidia]

Name one person that made a great scientific discovery without receiving proper education in the field in which they made it, or some similar field

Actually, Einstein fits this description more or less. All he had was a teachers diploma in Physics and mathematics, which isn't at all the same as a university degree. He got his PhD after writing a few papers without post-graduate studies. Sure, he had a solid education on his subjects, but most would not call it "proper" for someone that would completely redefine the laws of physics.

But Einstein is also the very antithesis of Keatah's approach due to the fact that all Einstein ever did was pushing numbers and equations around and writing papers.

 

[boogabooga]

Name one person that made a great scientific discovery without receiving proper education in the field in which they made it, or some similar field (I think there were discoveries in mathematics that were made by physicists, and vice versa - though I'm not 100% sure of it, actually).

Does this count?
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers"]Wright brothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Both brothers attended high school, but did not receive diplomas

 

[Fizyk]

I had a feeling that wasn't the best argument possible

But still the first part of my post holds.

 

[RisingFury]

I sure hope your post wasn't intended as a joke...

@Rising Fury - expect strange stupid stuff to come to discussion when sci-fi gets involved. The stranger the better. IMHO.

You're comparing science fiction to science? :lol:

There's mainstream science, where a student goes through the education machine and nestles into a cushy job, and sits around and theorizes.

NO.

A student that graduates does not get a research position. Even with a masters of science, it's tough to get a research position. Only PhD people get research positions and only in their narrow fields of study.

University graduates usually get some sort of industry job - RnD, (usually the D part) for example.

Poisoned and contaminated by 200-year old dichotomy. Then you have the one in 500 million "school-system-failure" student that comes up with something totally earth-shattering that changes the world.

Science is built on truth. While education will give you more credibility, if you have the capability to discover new things, you will get accepted in science for your work, not for your education.

All this "big science" is just that, BIG SCIENCE. Numbers and equations get pushed around, papers written, and nothing really ever comes of those activities. Papers get referenced by other papers and eventually collect dust on a shelf, or bit-rot themselves away into obscurity.

Right, just like Newton's laws of motion started out as equations on paper and of course, everyone knows how useless they are. Just like Einstein's relativity was only a thought experiment, written on a piece of paper and is now collecting dust on a shelf and rotting itself into obscurity. Quantum physics? Useless.

Touch screen technology went from a quantum phenomenon that only 3 people understood at the time, to a fully usable technology in only 20 years. Just another example of big mainstream science failure.

Not to mention that big mainstream science brings you electricity and warm water, big pharma science gives you medication that keeps you alive, big petroleum science gives you the convenience of transportation and so on.

All of it developed by big mainstream science, by people who had their brain washed at university for years.

Maybe you should reject all science and go live in a cave, as our ancestors did. Well, either that, or Earth is flat and 6000 year old. :facepalm:

I think different than the mainstream science majors and can see that the existing scientific "establishment" is on a dead path.

Reading your posts makes it painfully obvious you're completely ignorant of anything that has to do with science. You have no base that would allow you such statements.

Now, all that aside - If time dilation happened in the story as we would theorize in real-life then we wouldn't have a story to begin with! Nor would anyone be around to read it in the first place. The Earth would by then, have fallen into the sun and be sucked into the core.

Earth falling into the Sun. Just another discovery made by mainstream astrophysics.

 

[orb]

Live Science: Long-Sought Higgs Particle Cornered, Scientists Say:

{...}

Scientists at the world's largest particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Geneva, Switzerland, announced today (Dec. 13) that they'd narrowed down the list of possible hiding spots for the Higgs, (also called the God particle) and even see some indications that they're hot on its trail.

"I think we are getting very close," said Vivek Sharma, a physicist at the University of California, San Diego, and the leader of the Higgs search at LHC's CMS experiment. "We may be getting the first tantalizing hints, but it's a whiff, it's a smell, it's not quite the whole thing."

{...}

SPACE.com: Long-Sought 'God Particle' Cornered, Scientists Say

 

[blane]

So, basically the big announcement was that they further reduced the range for the possible mass:

The researchers have now cornered the Higgs mass in the range between 114.4 and 131 gigaelectronvolts (GeV)

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

:lol:

 

[Jarvitä]

also called the God particle

I wish they (press releases/media) would stop repeating this nonsense. It doesn't make sense, and it gives religious people scary ideas about what CERN is doing.

I propose we stick to the original provisional designation - "that goddamn particle".

 

[Cras]

Calling it the God Particle is just flat wrong. First, the Higgs Boson has nothing to do with the Big Bang. Yes, modern concepts of the Big Bang involve A Higgs Field, but it is not THE Higgs field that we are referring to here, which gives matter mass, and that isn't even quite how the Higgs Boson works.

Higgs Boson, why can't people just call it the Higg's Boson. Or just the Higgs. Or H Boson, I don't care. But not the God Particle.

Now I understand Keatah's point. At least to a certain extent.

Theoretical physics is at a time right now where the equations are lights years ahead of engineering capability, so very little of the breakthroughs are able to be experimentally verified. There are the odd quirks that can be done to the theory that allow for the possibility of an experimental prediction, such as Gravity is actually a lot strong than it really is at, and can be measured as such at small small distances. Gravity waves, echoes from certain theories about the Big Bang, but these are the exception.

Rather we get breakthroughs that put forth a reality that is fantastically different from the one we experience. Now this is not as much of a problem as it was back in the ye olde days of Sir Issac Netwon, as we have tried and true theories of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics that present a far more "bizzare" world than we could have anticipated. But this sort of desensitivity to the bizzare has allowed physicst now to never throw out a thoery based only on the eye test as it were.

Now we have theories of infinite sized universe, which results in bizarro Earth's and bizarro you and me. We have the Holographic Theory, which says that reality is really just a three dimensional spacetime sphere that gets projected into 11 dimensional bulk spacetime.

We get ideas on Time that suggest the moment as the only reality and the rest as total chaos. Sensible people read some of these and say they are nonsense, or just clever tricks with the math. The Holographic idea does have a sound base in the math, but is that to say this is really how the world works?

I would lean to say no. Infinite anything is nonsense. Holographic theory is just the concept of black hole entropy run amuck, or some of the more unacceptable ideas of time just certain equations being used in the wrong place.

But that does not descredit all of theoretical work. The majority of which leads to great insights into creation. And the Higgs Boson is evidence of that. Not a single shread of experiemental evidence has ever suggested that such a field existed unitl now. It was purly a theoretical excercise to explain why work is needed to move mass, and now it looks like this theoretical work is on the verge of actually being proven right.

 

[Ghostrider]

Can't we call it "Good ol' H.B." and be done with it? OK, it's not as flashy as "God's particle" but it's not too shabby either.

 

[orb]

Universe Today: Particle Physicists Put the Squeeze on the Higgs Boson; Look for Conclusive Results in 2012

Discovery News: Has the Elusive Higgs Boson Been Spotted?