Discussion Falcon 9 Heavy Circumlunar flight

[Unstung]

So, Apollo 11 is a stunt, too?

Certainly. According to the second definition, all spaceflights can be considered stunts. They're all difficult feats that require great skill. It's easier to call a mission that gets much publicity a stunt, like Philae, but all exploration is a stunt regardless of scientific merit.

Important is the word "chiefly" in your definition. Has Apollo 8 been really "chiefly" done - after 6 years of development?

I never claimed Apollo 8 has been done solely for publicity; actually, I admitted the opposite. That is why I found the second definition, to support my original statement. According to that definition, acquiring publicity is typical of, but not essential to, stunts. I attempted to define a stunt in my initial post which I used to justify why Apollo 8 was a stunt.

completing a spectacular and highly visible performance (the definition of a stunt)

Don't think that what I mean by "stunt" is some petty, audacious act performed for attention. The way I'm defining a stunt is like how the word theory is commonly used verses what is meant by an actual scientific theory. The definition is very rigid. I know that Apollo 8 was not a rash decision.

This tangent is getting away from the point of the thread, and I think I've explained my reasoning enough.

 

[Alfastar]

Apollo 8 was a "stunt" . The LEM was late, still undergoing design changes to fireproof it and to pare down excess weight. The Saturn V was ready despite
the problems during the April launch. Also the Russians were knocking on the
flying their ZOND spacecraft, unmanned, around the moon
It looked like would try to send a manned mission around the moon to steal
some glory from the US.

Elon Musk may just decide "go for it" .......

You don't go spend billions of dollars, spend years of R&D, test flights and thousands of employers just for a simple stunt. The goal was to put a men on the Moon, sounds simple right? But it wasn't just to stunt against especially the soviets.

Elon can promise to put people back on the moon, Elon can promise to go to Mars, Elon can promise to build an interplanetary ship. But that are just simple PR words, especially when you got not the stuff for it. The Dragon as we know now to supply cargo to the ISS isn't the same one as who going to be used for sending astronauts to the ISS.

That means again a lot of R&D, time and money to make the Dragon V2 to a fact instead of fiction. And its basically made for just sending astronauts to the ISS, not for landing on the moon nor on Mars.

 

[Urwumpe]

That means again a lot of R&D, time and money to make the Dragon V2 to a fact instead of fiction. And its basically made for just sending astronauts to the ISS, not for landing on the moon nor on Mars.

Especially, it might mean a design strategy that could be absolutely uneconomic. NASA or any other government operated spaceflight agency can afford designing a capsule that exceeds the design goals of its operations and is capable of potential future uses that are 20 years in the future.

A private company can't do that. If it is designed beyond the market, it will likely be facing strong competition by designs that are designed exactly to the market and thus way cheaper and way more efficient.

A Dragon Mk 3 or Dragon Mk 4 might be the capsule that might have a good reason to be designed for lunar operations.

 

[Andy44]

You don't go spend billions of dollars, spend years of R&D, test flights and thousands of employers just for a simple stunt.

Yes, you do. The entire Apollo program, was a stunt, performed at great cost to its client, who could afford it and was willing to pay, in order to score a propaganda victory over the USSR, and was also driven by fear of becoming inferior in technology.

And I'm okay with that.

Most large technology demonstrations are stunts (Spaceship 1). And many exploration missions are stunts (Christopher Columbus). That doesn't make them useless. Stunts can push limits and calling attention to themselves can have the benefit of opening markets and inspiring people.

And just as the US wanted to show up the Soviet Union on the world stage and to inspire its people, SpaceX likes to show off and get people excited about what its doing in spaceflight. More commercial and less political in purpose, but still with a vision of "conquering space" behind it.

So if they launch a lunar flyby mission just to get cool points, while at the same time demonstrating technology, gaining flight heritage on hardware, and accomplishing multiple test objectives, that's just fine with me.

Besides, unlike NASA, SpaceX is not my company. They can do what they want up to the point where they start asking me to pay for it.

So, SpaceX, go for it.

 

[dman]

One question have - is the Dragon V2 (manned version) capable of lunar
flight?

Does have capability of communications at lunar distance, is the heat shield
capable of reentry at velocity from lunar mission .....

The Super Draco thrusters seem to have sufficent thrust to slow down
and later blast back to earth bound trajectory (16, 800 lb thrust vs
20,500 lb for Service module) . Thrusters also function as abort rocket
to blast away from failing booster. Wonder if have carry sufficent propellent
for lunar orbit insertion and later blasting back to earth.

 

[Donamy]

Lunar Dragon would probably have a special trunk, for lunar circumnavigation.

 

[PhantomCruiser]

SpaceX made many mentions of the PicaX heat shield when Dragon first had its debut. Elon had mentioned that it was sufficient for a Mars re-entry. I haven't heard much about it since, but as much as Elon shows up there should be some youtube video somewhere.

Here's some stuff on the Dragon TPS (the pdf has some pretty good stuff).
http://www.spacex.com/news/2013/04/04/pica-heat-shield
http://136.142.82.187/eng12/history/spring2013/pdf/3131.pdf

I think for a lunar flight, Dragon would either need to haul a hab of some sorts, or a vastly different trunk to support the extra stuff needed. The moon is 3 days out and 3 days back (basically), whereas ISS can be gotten to in a matter of hours (if the conditions and crew are right for it).

 

[dman]

Lunar Dragon would probably have a special trunk

So would need more "junk in the trunk"....

Maybe should call Kim Kardashian.........

 

[Andy44]

Maybe should call Kim Kardashian.........

There should be a Godwin-style Law for mentioning such people in a spaceflight forum...

 

[boogabooga]

Lunar Dragon would probably have a special trunk

So would need more "junk in the trunk"....

Maybe should call Kim Kardashian.........

Where is the "no thanks" button? :shifty:

 

[Hlynkacg]

So, Apollo 11 is a stunt, too?

Of course it was.

That's why we haven't been back in 40 years.