Science Eurobarometer - "Science and Technology"

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,628
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Grade A MORON.

Yeah. You might be surprised how many people think electromagnetism and gravity are the same, despite having contradicting evidence at hand.

PS: The multi-body program can be solved. Not analytically, but numerically. Which is good enough. Did somebody tell this moron, that Maxwells equations can also only be solved numerically and not analytically?
 

Andy44

owner: Oil Creek Astronautix
Addon Developer
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
7,620
Reaction score
7
Points
113
Location
In the Mid-Atlantic states
Yeah. You might be surprised how many people think electromagnetism and gravity are the same, despite having contradicting evidence at hand.

PS: The multi-body program can be solved. Not analytically, but numerically. Which is good enough. Did somebody tell this moron, that Maxwells equations can also only be solved numerically and not analytically?

Yes, the Fail is strong with that one.
 

Artlav

Aperiodic traveller
Addon Developer
Beta Tester
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
5,790
Reaction score
780
Points
203
Location
Earth
Website
orbides.org
Preferred Pronouns
she/her
Aren't people supposed to be afraid of the unknown? To fear the known, and even the fact that it is known, makes no sense.
That's it exactly - people are afraid of the unknown. Of the unknown ways things around them work, of the unknown dangers all kinds of experiments can in their view cause, of the unknown knowledge they would have to make huge effort to understand. The effort they are afraid of.

Many people live in a world full of magic, magic that make cars run ("oh, this hybrid still needs gasoline? I want my money back"), the magic that computers are full of (plenty of examples all around), all kinds of magic they don't understand that makes things around them work.

Living in such a shattered world, without any understanding-driven guidance, clinging to shards of tried ways and what-others-doing, must be a really stressful way of existence.
How else to explain extreme violence over trivial matters we see all around us?
 

Usquanigo

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
487
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
uk.groups.yahoo.com
Is there really an anti-technology and/or anti-science swell going on though?

While I grant that the circles one runs in will skew one's observations, when I look around, I see people clamoring for the next eyePhone (err, I mean iPhone), the iPad, smaller and more powerful cameras, more computer connectivity in their cars, 3D animated movies (I saw Toy Story 3 a couple weeks ago and half the previews were for movies coming out in 3D and most of them were CGI), and of course constant connectivity through their 'smart phones' to their "social networking" site, blogging and vlogging and being twits... err I mean twittering. People also want the gov't to spoon feed them and tuck them in every night - everything from 24/7 surveillance of law abiding citizens (complete with tracking and facial recognition tech), to implanted chips for location tracking and even bank account access (just like your pet - and yes, a family in Florida has stepped up to be the test on this, a few years ago even).

Then you look at the return of Futurama, the success of the MythBusters, and shows like Sci-Fi Science, The Universe, and now the newest one, Through The Wormhole.

And now NASA even has a game.

Seems to me like there is a lot of pro-science going on out there. The geek have inherited the Earth (it seems).


Of course, that's just my American Geek perspective....
 

GregBurch

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
977
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Space City, USA (Houston)
Is there really an anti-technology and/or anti-science swell going on though?

While I grant that the circles one runs in will skew one's observations, when I look around, I see people clamoring for the next eyePhone (err, I mean iPhone),

[snip]

Seems to me like there is a lot of pro-science going on out there. The geek have inherited the Earth (it seems).


Of course, that's just my American Geek perspective....

Major cultural change is never completely monolithic or one-sided. It's not as if everyone in Europe woke up after the sack of Rome in 410 AD and said, "Damn! the Dark Ages have started ... what a bummer the next 1000 years will be!"

Yes, most people still enjoy the fruits of science and, when it's not challenging to the values they already hold, the next gadget that comes along. But supporting a real scientific world view on a fundamental level -- with everything that implies about how one has to embrace the notion of actual truth in the real world -- is another matter. How else could we be facing the disastrous evidence that getting off the hydrocarbon tit is a pressing need, but our "leaders" here in the US don't say anything about the only viable alternative, nuclear energy? Why, because that's "dangerous science;" everyone KNOWS that!
 

T.Neo

SA 2010 Soccermaniac
Addon Developer
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
6,368
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Have a look through his channel to see the mockery he made of theory of global warming and several political subjects...

Or his attempts to understand women...
 

Izack

Non sequitur
Addon Developer
Joined
Feb 4, 2010
Messages
6,665
Reaction score
13
Points
113
Location
The Wilderness, N.B.
@Usquanigo

That's not exactly science, that's popular gadgetry and entertainment. You don't see people excited about the latest breakthroughs of nuclear physics. Rather, you see the opposite. What you get is sensational statements about how the Large Hadron Collider is going to make a black hole and kill us all.

Eye-phones and video games are innocuous. Nuclear and high-energy physics is both too complicated and 'boring' for people to want to understand, and too dangerous in the media's eyes. In essence, there's a big difference between popular science and real science.

It is a very small and exclusive group, the people who enjoy learning and aren't afraid to do so.

I would like to say that that group rules the world, but sadly, the status quo continues to hold 'true' in the eyes of the masses.
 

Usquanigo

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
487
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
uk.groups.yahoo.com
Major cultural change is never completely monolithic or one-sided. It's not as if everyone in Europe woke up after the sack of Rome in 410 AD and said, "Damn! the Dark Ages have started ... what a bummer the next 1000 years will be!"

Yes, most people still enjoy the fruits of science and, when it's not challenging to the values they already hold, the next gadget that comes along. But supporting a real scientific world view on a fundamental level -- with everything that implies about how one has to embrace the notion of actual truth in the real world -- is another matter. How else could we be facing the disastrous evidence that getting off the hydrocarbon tit is a pressing need, but our "leaders" here in the US don't say anything about the only viable alternative, nuclear energy? Why, because that's "dangerous science;" everyone KNOWS that!

Have to disagree. In the first place, the statement that nuclear energy is "dangerous science" isn't that science is dangerous, rather that that specific avenue of study is. AND, in the second place, it's not everyone that thinks that - it's the liberals, the bane of freedom and ultimately of society.

And what is "actual truth"? Is that a vote for atheism? Atheists are like teenagers, they think they know everything, but eventually some of them grow up and realize they really don't know much at all (and become agnostics). It was very interesting to see how much of Through The Wormhole was about scientists that, THROUGH their study, have come to believe in some sort of higher level of being (that doesn't mean yaweh, just 'something').

Everyone knows that science is needed for tech gadgets. And those tech gadgets are also needed for the gov't to treat us all like incompetent children who are criminals just waiting to happen, and watch our every move 24/7, as well as handle all aspects of life such as money and food handouts. Given the alarming popularity of socialism these days, it's a given that science must also be invoked and used. (Equilibrium is not far off, you just watch - that IS the next logical step, to make people.... "better" (as Mal once phrased it))

Also, hydrocarbons are NOT a problem. Never have been, never will be. Are you talking about the liberal BS about "global warming"? Nevermind that we have no impact on, and no control over (nor anything to worry about from) such a thing - the real answer is NOT alternative fuels.... it's less people. Wait until fresh water becomes the item in high demand and low supply. When it rockets the cost of food through the roof (in addition to raw demand for food itself, AND for the land used to grow it on). It's not that far out. A few years, really.

---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------

@Usquanigo

That's not exactly science, that's popular gadgetry and entertainment. You don't see people excited about the latest breakthroughs of nuclear physics. Rather, you see the opposite. What you get is sensational statements about how the Large Hadron Collider is going to make a black hole and kill us all.

Eye-phones and video games are innocuous. Nuclear and high-energy physics is both too complicated and 'boring' for people to want to understand, and too dangerous in the media's eyes. In essence, there's a big difference between popular science and real science.

It is a very small and exclusive group, the people who enjoy learning and aren't afraid to do so.

I would like to say that that group rules the world, but sadly, the status quo continues to hold 'true' in the eyes of the masses.

But entertainment is the point. If it was "dangerous", it would be censored, and also not produced. How many scientists and engineers out there were inspired by Star Trek and Star Wars and Heinlein and Asimov? It's the captivation of imagination that leads those with the capacity down that path. Without celebrating science in some way, that just doesn't happen. Whether it's making a public celebrity out of an eminent scientist (Einstein in the 50s), or using TV and entertainment, it is inextricably linked, and shows a level of hunger for it in the public. Especially today where if it doesn't turn a profit, it doesn't get made.

And a video game isn't exactly on the same level as Through The Wormhole, or even the MythBusters for that matter.

There are a lot of downsides to it, but it's not science, it's the use of it. The means of tracking people is a horror of technology. Databasing DNA or people's movements and habits is the same. Those are things that should NEVER happen. But used for curing disease, or intentionally adapting people to a changing environment, that's a good thing. Then again..... with a little more natural selection and smaller population, those diseases and other physical defects could go away on their own, but that takes a level of intestinal fortitude that humans lack these days (an indication of our ultimate decline and eventual demise). Further, nanites could be used to eradicate things like cancer and such without the need for genetic research (to the level that we are taking it at least). (simple program "doesn't belong here (in this body), so destroy it")

All of those things - fear of nuclear power, resistance to space research, over-zealous big brother, un-satable hunger for handouts.... those are all part of a philosophy that is the real problem. Those people band together under a common banner in the US, and they use a horse-like animal for their mascot. Get rid of them, and things get a LOT better for everyone (all around).
 

JEL

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
674
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
in the cold Denmark
Website
www.jelstudio.dk
Apparently the ever present curse (or price) of freedom is stupid people.

Still, if the alternative to that is technocratic societies like china, where the government tells you what you may and may not think, under threat of punishment, then I have no doubts which I prefer :)
 

Usquanigo

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
487
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
uk.groups.yahoo.com
Earth was hotter in civilization's history than it is now, we just didn't measure it and have a scam to sell "carbon credits" or 24 hour 'news' networks to sell the hysteria. (there's a reason it was called GREENland, and also a reason why it's not a Viking settlement (in continuous use) today)

Further, a time when it was MUCH hotter than today resulted in the most abundant life this planet has ever seen. With dragonflys big enough to carry German Shepards off for a snack and centipedes able to stand up and look you in the eye.

We are insignificant and inconsequential to this rock, or life on it, short of a total nuclear war. And getting warmer won't hurt anything anyway. And the part I love "warming causes an ice age" - well, then it corrects itself, doesn't it?

Two words - Maunder Minimum. We're on the verge of it. If the hype is true about what we are capable of, then we damn well better to more of it, global cooling will suck big time.

Meanwhile, break out the shades, grab some sunblock, slip into some flipflops and shorts or wraps, kick back and enjoy the nice weather. (the warmer the better, gimme moar!) :cool:
 

RisingFury

OBSP developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
6,427
Reaction score
492
Points
173
Location
Among bits and Bytes...
Earth was hotter in civilization's history than it is now, we just didn't measure it and have a scam to sell "carbon credits" or 24 hour 'news' networks to sell the hysteria. (there's a reason it was called GREENland, and also a reason why it's not a Viking settlement (in continuous use) today)

Further, a time when it was MUCH hotter than today resulted in the most abundant life this planet has ever seen. With dragonflys big enough to carry German Shepards off for a snack and centipedes able to stand up and look you in the eye.

We are insignificant and inconsequential to this rock, or life on it, short of a total nuclear war. And getting warmer won't hurt anything anyway. And the part I love "warming causes an ice age" - well, then it corrects itself, doesn't it?

Two words - Maunder Minimum. We're on the verge of it. If the hype is true about what we are capable of, then we damn well better to more of it, global cooling will suck big time.

Meanwhile, break out the shades, grab some sunblock, slip into some flipflops and shorts or wraps, kick back and enjoy the nice weather. (the warmer the better, gimme moar!) :cool:


That's good! The imminent ice age gave it away though.
 

Usquanigo

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
487
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
uk.groups.yahoo.com
Nobody said anything about an imminent ice age.

In the first place, if it was possible to be warmer than now at one point in time, then it's possible for it to happen again without an ice age.

In the second place, if that eco-mentalist chain of events actually were to come to pass, then it's self correcting and an utter non-issue (no need to worry about the polar bears and ice caps going away, they'll all be right back, won't they?).

Either way, it's assinine.

Especially the ego involved with nonsense about our 'hand' in it. It's all about money and control. Nothing more.

AND.... let's take that as a given for example, let's say people ARE involved. Guess what.... conservation and efficiency WILL. NOT. CUT. IT. The only solution is less people. Birth rate control.

Nobody want's to accept that one though. Go figure.
 

insanity

Blastronaut
Donator
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
1,194
Reaction score
106
Points
63
Location
Oakland, CA
Have to disagree. In the first place, the statement that nuclear energy is "dangerous science" isn't that science is dangerous, rather that that specific avenue of study is. AND, in the second place, it's not everyone that thinks that - it's the liberals, the bane of freedom and ultimately of society.
Wrong. Don't say something stupid like that without backing it up. It's people like you who ascribe groups as being the problem of free societies that are usally the problem with free societies. Seriously, as a liberal I take huge objection to your monopolization on who is good and bad for society. When talking about science, it implies keeping your mind open, which clearly you are unwilling to do from the get go. Also, learn to read because when people "use quotes" it usually means sarcasm.

And what is "actual truth"? Is that a vote for atheism? Atheists are like teenagers, they think they know everything, but eventually some of them grow up and realize they really don't know much at all (and become agnostics).
Again, ill-informed and hypocritical. You seem to be the one who thinks they know everything and really doesn't know much at all. I could go into a diatribe about how the scientific method works, why it discounts everything you're trying to say, but again, it'd be lost on you because you've made up your mind.

Given the alarming popularity of socialism these days, it's a given that science must also be invoked and used. (Equilibrium is not far off, you just watch - that IS the next logical step, to make people.... "better" (as Mal once phrased it))
Really, in the last 50 years wealth has been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands which is kinda the exact opposite of socialism. Again, stop making uninformed blanket attacks.

Also, hydrocarbons are NOT a problem. Never have been, never will be. Are you talking about the liberal BS about "global warming"? Nevermind that we have no impact on, and no control over (nor anything to worry about from) such a thing - the real answer is NOT alternative fuels.... it's less people.
Shoot yourself then. If population is the problem, become the solution. Seriously, how can you believe that we don't impact our environment? Every action has a reaction, and nothing is infinite.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

computerex

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
1,282
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Florida
Usquanigo - It is worth investing resources for energy management because our current method of acquiring energy is limited by time. Even if you have a smaller population, fossil fuels will eventually deplete. We only have a finite amount of them.

Ideally we should be attempting to create some sort of a cycle. Nuclear energy is cheap, but it faces roughly the same problems. For instance, waste storage. I believe right now the storage containers we use degrade in around ten thousand years. That is no where near the half life of uranium. So we are essentially creating problems for the future for immediate gratification.

I don't know, I think biofuels have merit. If we find a better way to harness solar energy, that'd be nice too. Wind energy is temperamental, hydroelectricity causes disturbances in ecosystems, and some people fear that geothermal energy could cause issues in the long run.

In the end what is clear is that humanity as a whole will need to take this step together. Unfortunately politicians are too near sighted. I mean it is just like the national debt. People aren't accustomed to change, and change often requires sacrifice. Telling people that you will deal with national debt is political suicide. Telling them that you are going to be raising taxes for more research into alternative fuel sources is even more so.
 
Last edited:

GregBurch

Addon Developer
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
977
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Space City, USA (Houston)
For what it's worth, I've worked in connection with the oil and gas and hydrocarbon-fueled electric power industries my whole adult life -- 30+ years since graduating from college. And, again FWIW, old timers here will chuckle at the thought of someone accusing me of being a "liberal" or being subject to PC groupthink.

Despite making my living from the hydrocarbon economy, I'm a rabid supporter of getting off the oil tit as fast as possible for some simple reasons: 1) The political and cultural price we pay for dependency on fuel stocks imported from the nastiest parts of the planet is simply too high and 2) whether its now or ten years from now, "peak oil" is real and will choke our civilization even if the costs imposed on us by those who still have stocks of the stuff doesn't.

Note I didn't offer global warming as a reason. I'm an agnostic on the subject of anthropogenic global warming, but have a completely clear conscience on the subject, since I so strongly support ending the use of hydrocarbons as a fuel source for other reasons.

As for nuclear power, the hazards of waste storage are, in my opinion, far overstated by those with a political and cultural agenda adverse to nuclear power. Technologies exist to minimize the amount of waste generated, and the storage problem is solvable at a societal cost far less than the costs imposed by our hydrocarbon addiction.
 

RisingFury

OBSP developer
Addon Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
6,427
Reaction score
492
Points
173
Location
Among bits and Bytes...
Nobody said anything about an imminent ice age.

In the first place, if it was possible to be warmer than now at one point in time, then it's possible for it to happen again without an ice age.

In the second place, if that eco-mentalist chain of events actually were to come to pass, then it's self correcting and an utter non-issue (no need to worry about the polar bears and ice caps going away, they'll all be right back, won't they?).

Either way, it's assinine.

Especially the ego involved with nonsense about our 'hand' in it. It's all about money and control. Nothing more.

AND.... let's take that as a given for example, let's say people ARE involved. Guess what.... conservation and efficiency WILL. NOT. CUT. IT. The only solution is less people. Birth rate control.

Nobody want's to accept that one though. Go figure.


Of course you'll trust scientists and the scientific method to develop drugs to keep you alive when you get sick. You'll even trust them with the CT, MRI and X-ray imaging to see what's wrong with you. You'll trust science when boarding a plane and cheering the Space Shuttle into orbit. You'll trust science when seeing galaxies billions of years away from Earth and objects being devoured by black holes. You'll trust science with your iPhone and computer. Let's throw the internet into the mix, pretty much developed for sharing massive amounts of data from particle collides (and yes, I know ARPANET started it). Hell, you'll even trust science to produce enough food to feed 7 billion people.................

But when the same scientific method is used to detect changes in our environment and evolution of life on Earth, you are suddenly smarter then the thousands of scientists that had spent their entire lives studying the subject. You find mistakes that nobody else ever saw, but when you try to address them, you get dazzled with explanations, the hows and whys. Of course, at that point, it's clear to you that it's all a giant conspiracy. Why don't you join the "Moon landing hoax fan club".




---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

Why don't you head on over to www.conservapedia.com where the liberal bias and atheist evil is reveled.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Linguofreak

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
5,034
Reaction score
1,273
Points
188
Location
Dallas, TX
For what it's worth, I've worked in connection with the oil and gas and hydrocarbon-fueled electric power industries my whole adult life -- 30+ years since graduating from college. And, again FWIW, old timers here will chuckle at the thought of someone accusing me of being a "liberal" or being subject to PC groupthink.

Despite making my living from the hydrocarbon economy, I'm a rabid supporter of getting off the oil tit as fast as possible for some simple reasons: 1) The political and cultural price we pay for dependency on fuel stocks imported from the nastiest parts of the planet is simply too high and 2) whether its now or ten years from now, "peak oil" is real and will choke our civilization even if the costs imposed on us by those who still have stocks of the stuff doesn't.

Note I didn't offer global warming as a reason. I'm an agnostic on the subject of anthropogenic global warming, but have a completely clear conscience on the subject, since I so strongly support ending the use of hydrocarbons as a fuel source for other reasons.

I'm actually a cautious believer in AGW, for interesting reasons: I had been a skeptic, but in talking it over with my Dad, found the things he found hard to believe were the things I took as valid, and the things I found hard to believe he took as valid.

I'm still a bit cautious on the whole subject, because the whole thing is so starkly politicized that it's hard to get information on the subject that hasn't been manipulated and spun up the ying yang by one side or the other, hard to figure out how much the scientific community has been politically tainted, hard to trust the political side that generally believes in AGW on issues other than AGW, hard to trust the side I trust on other issues on AGW, etc.

As for nuclear power, the hazards of waste storage are, in my opinion, far overstated by those with a political and cultural agenda adverse to nuclear power. Technologies exist to minimize the amount of waste generated, and the storage problem is solvable at a societal cost far less than the costs imposed by our hydrocarbon addiction.

Indeed. For practically any energy source, whether "mainstream" or "alternative", you can find some segment of the environmental movement that opposes it.
 

Urwumpe

Not funny anymore
Addon Developer
Donator
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
37,628
Reaction score
2,345
Points
203
Location
Wolfsburg
Preferred Pronouns
Sire
Nobody said anything about an imminent ice age.

That is wrong. Scientists did in the 1970s before the green house effect was known, and actually, Earth should be heading into a ice age again, if solar activity would be the only factor.

In the first place, if it was possible to be warmer than now at one point in time, then it's possible for it to happen again without an ice age.

Yes - but not by natural cycles. It also can't get warmed so quickly under the current conditions by natural cycles alone.

In the second place, if that eco-mentalist chain of events actually were to come to pass, then it's self correcting and an utter non-issue (no need to worry about the polar bears and ice caps going away, they'll all be right back, won't they?).

self-correcting does not mean, that it will not get painful or just go away. Also the climate does not need to be self-correcting at the kind of climate that we humans like. The atmosphere and the climate had completely in the past and we had quite a few critical changes, that had been linked to major catastrophes.


Especially the ego involved with nonsense about our 'hand' in it. It's all about money and control. Nothing more.

No. That is simple math. It took 120 million years to form the fossil fuel that we burned in the past 100 years.

And everything is about money and control, even your posting here is, if you watch it through economists eyes. Welcome to reality. Everybody only wants your best, and that is your money, or your political power.


AND.... let's take that as a given for example, let's say people ARE involved. Guess what.... conservation and efficiency WILL. NOT. CUT. IT. The only solution is less people. Birth rate control.

That is not only wrong - there is a huge potential for us to save energy, since we waste a lot of it for nothing else but making hot air.

And if you want less people, do the first step yourself. Either by killing yourself for letting other people live better, or by just having less children.

Nobody want's to accept that one though. Go figure.

I see you, you are a great example about how you cling to your comfortable lies for accusing the other people of trying to control you. In reality, many people will have to die only by your decisions. You might not know them, but they exist.

Now, to make you feel a bit comfortable: It doesn't matter what path you choose, your actions will always mean the death of people. Because you compete for limited resources, and your decisions how you use one resources means, other people will not have this resource. But go figure. You are in a really tiny planet and not alone at all. A Chinese factory can mean that your children will grow up in a dry wasteland or experience serious flooding. Just because of the tiny changes in the rain patterns, that a tiny change in temperature can have. It doesn't need to be large and still it can change natural patterns.
 
Last edited:

Linguofreak

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
5,034
Reaction score
1,273
Points
188
Location
Dallas, TX
Really, in the last 50 years wealth has been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands which is kinda the exact opposite of socialism.

It's the exact opposite of socialism in *theory*. Many would argue, however, that socialism in *practice* does the exact opposite of socialism in theory, and thus that the observation of greater inequality of wealth is consistent with the growing popularity of socialism.

(To be fair, the current situation in the US seems to be the result of a deadly mix of capitalist-socialist compromises that in the short term 'help the poor while maintaining a free market', but in the long term channel taxpayer money into the hands of the rich).
 
Top