English

[ar81]

Zubanestruhenbähen (pronunciación - suban, estrujen, bajen): Autobús, en alemán...
A spanish joke... :lol:

In high school I was lazy in french lessons, so I basically passed the courses, but I never learned.
I applied for student exchange and I never got lucky, so I thought that french was useless.
My school was a medium-low class high school and I was one of the highest grades in my class.
There was no internet and when students from other country came I never had a chance to make friends since other more popular people got close to them.

Later in life DVDs came with french languaje, I had a french gf, and finally I found the french forum of Dan Steph and Mustard's addons, so I really learned to regret my poor appreciation of french language.

 

[Moonwalker]

Certainly:dry:.But the times are changing ( they âââre chenn'gin' poum poum poum).No doubt that in some...decades (maybe earlier) the first international language will be the one i speak actually with my compatriots, hombre !

Read that paper. :lol:

"How We Became the United States of France"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1843168,00.html?cnn=yes

Don't take me too seriously I like French actually, at least listening (especially to french women ). But when you have to learn it in school as a non-Frenchman of course, it can be horrible.

Actually, French already is an international language when I look how many people around the globe speak French...

 

[golden_eye]

The most curious thing about this thread, is that it discusses English, yet there were no Englishmen and only two American post. Talk about global "Lingua France".

Funny you point that out .

I noticed a couple people mention that it seems native speakers in some cases are sloppier in their language skills than foreigners learning the same language. I wonder if that's not a sort of lazy evolution of schooling as time has passed? Sort of a situation where unconsciously (or maybe consciously?), people are putting less emphasis on language skills because they speak it every day and become lazy over time.

Going on Artlav's point though, all of the responses so far from the non-native speakers display a very high quality of english skills that many Americans I have run into just don't have, either from laziness or poor schooling. I'm only a one trick pony as far as language goes (the spanish I learned in high school never stuck) but I like to think that I have a fairly decent grasp on the language. I know I'm far from perfect but some of the stuff I see on other forums and hear while out and about is rediculous.

 

[Notebook]

Gosh, as an indigenous native speaker, I wouldn't know where to start.

N.

 

[astrosammy]

I always had good marks in the one year I had french, mostly "2" (or "B" in the English school sytem). But that is 3 years ago and I only remember very simple words.

But I was in a special ("bilingual") class that had more English lessons than normal ones, so I can speak English quite good (this forum made my English even better, because it makes me to use English every day).

 

[ar81]

Look at my english skills:

"My mother is a pencil".
"The sheep is sailing".
"Prices are chip here"

 

[Missioncmdr]

I have always thoguht that English was one of the harder languages to learn (aside from things such as Chinese). However, as a native speaker of English it is difficult to put this into context. It seems that English is difficult to learn because there are so many irregularities and exceptions to rules.

I think it is silly (and sometimes insulting) as to why people question why there are small differences in the various forms of English (Canadian, American, British, Australian, etc.). When two countries are separated by a huge body of water (saomething on the order of the Atlantic Ocean), of course there are going to be subtle differences in the language we speak. One thing I have heard (although I am not sure if it is true), is that because the British-American colonies were established before the English language was standardized, minor spelling differences started to occur. One of the best known examples is how in the United States, I spell it "color." In other countries, like the United Kingdom and Canada, it is spelled "colour."

Looking back upon my education, I am kind of upset over the fact that I never really had any opportunities to learn a second language. My high school did offer some sort of Spanish class, but I never got in (and apparently the whole Spanish program was kind of botched during my tenure there for reasons that would take too long to explain). I remember one joke I heard when I was a sophmore:

"What do you call a person that can speak three languages?"
"Trilingual."
"What do you call a person that can speak two languages?"
"Bilingual."
"What do you call a person that can only speak one language?"
"An American."

And then he went on some sort of spiel about how Americans were un-educated. Of course, the dreadful irony was that he was a teacher (but not a very good one in my opinion).

It is kind of embarrassing to me when I come to a message board like this where people who are not native English speakers take it upon themselves to learn and speak my language. I suppose it is good for them, but it makes me feel like an idiot. But, hopefully, that will change someday. I read on a website last week that Norwegian was an easy language for native English speakers to learn, so I might try that. Of course, since I only have the Internet at my disposal and I am already past the age where learning a language is easy, I am unsure as to how difficult it will be.

Wow! I do not write many posts that long.

 

[Urwumpe]

"I will not buy this record; it is scratched."

 

[fort]

... I had a french gf...

...especially to french women

I think that the French woman do a formidable work in favour of our linguistic inheritance...:lol:

I am already past the age where learning a language is easy, I am unsure as to how difficult it will be.

Said without any irony (ironie in french) : you live in a country that have, it seems to me, invented, created, the "just do it" locution. So, go on and do it ( I'm sure that there is many proverb for the circumstance) and don't look back to often on the way.

 

[joeybigO]

mande?

 

[Linguofreak]

When it comes to grammar, I think English is actually a quite simple language (*). You have a relatively small number of grammatical forms, compared to e.g. German or Latin.

(*) I would be ROFL if it turns out this sentence is grammatically incorrect :lol:. I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know for sure.

One small error: We would say "quite a" not "a quite." But for most other modifiers that you could use in that sentence, the word order you used would be correct (you could say "a really simple language," "a very simple language," "a mind-numbingly simple language," etc.)

It's an especially small error in writing, since the brain often automatically rearranges things to make sense when it comes across them in writing. I actually read it as "quite a" on the first time through, and only noticed the error on closer inspection.


-----Posted Added-----

In standard British-type English we have 12 simple vowels and 4 dipthongs (some say 8, but I think they're out of date). The exact number varies according to the dialect and the authority they're quoting.
But for those coming from Japanese or Spanish, with 5 simple vowels, it's pretty tough.
In my experience, phonetics is the area which is worst taught and worst understood.

BTW, could you explain the research you mention. PM me if you think it'd be boring for the other users.

In American English we have following vowels.

(I'm using X-SAMPA as my transcription scheme. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Sampa )

The simple vowels:

/{/ as in pat
/E/ as in pet
/I/ as in pit
/i/ as in Pete
/A/ as in pot* or father
/O/ as in caught*
/U/ as in put
/u/ as in food
/@/ as in above**
/6/ as in bud** (often transcribed /V/)

*/A/ and /O/ are merged in many dialects of English, including my own, sometimes to /A/, in my case to /Q/ (See the Wikipedia article on X-SAMPA if you want to know exactly which vowel /Q/ represents).

** I have never been able to tell the difference between /@/ and /6/. I hear the same vowel in both syllables of "above" as I do in "bud."

The diphthongs:
/Ai/ as in ride
/@i/ as in write*
/oi/ as in boy
/Au/ or {u as in crowd
/Ei/ as in rate**
/@u/ as in go**
/iw/ as in few, or ewe***

* /@i/ does not appear in all dialects of American English, but does in my own. It is a variant of /Ai/ before sounds like p, t, and k, called "voiceless" sounds. Both t and d become a really fast variety of d in my dialect (X-SAMPA /4/ basically the same as the Spanish single r), and so the distinction between /Ai/ and /@i/ becomes the only difference between the two words.

** /Ei/ and /@u/ are technically diphthongs, but used to be, and often are still treated as, the simple vowels /e/ and /o/.

***/iw/ is generally transcribed /ju/, treated as a consonant plus a vowel, and thus not placed on vowel charts. However, I myself find there to a difference between the sound of /ju/, as in the word "you" or the name of the letter "U," and the sound of /iw/, as in the word "ewe" (a female sheep), or the exclamation of disgust "Ewww!"

The letter r:

Many treatments of American English count "r" as an "r-colored" vowel, /@`/, and if one does so, one could conceivably treat all vowels followed by r as diphthongs, although this is not usually done.


Depending on how you count things, there are between 8 and 10 simple vowels (or up to 13 if you count /Ei/ and /@u/ as /e/ and /o/), between 5 and 7 diphthongs (or as few as 3 if you exclude /Ei/ and /@u/), plus the possibility of having r as a simple vowel, bringing the total as high as 11, and vowels followed by r as diphthongs, bringing the total even higher. (There are alot of complications, so I won't attempt to count the total potential number of r-diphtongs).

With 10 simple vowels plus r, and 7 diphthongs, you get 18 vowels. With 8 simple vowels, not including r, and 5 diphthongs, you get 13 vowels.

So American English has, as a back-of-the-envelope count, between 13 and 18 vowels.

 

[RisingFury]

The biggest problem with english is that for every rule there is an exception, and for every exception there is an exception.

Pfft!

Wanna try learning German or better yet, Slovenian?

English is easy. Everything is predictable and there are few exceptions.


The syntax is easy as hell, word formation is easy as hell.

Try learning German or Slovenian where you have to know the gender of the word (one of the three genders), the case it's being used in and the gender it refers to... and a few more things.

There are three genders in both of these languages (male, female and "middle") and there's not much of a rule to determine the gender. The rules that do exist refer to the ending letter of the word (such as e for female gender in German or a in Slovenian) or some other combination of letter, but even that can't be held true 100%.

You have to literary know the gender of every word to speak the language correctly.

German has 4 cases, with the second being rarely used. Slovenian has 6 cases with all of them being frequently used. And the words change in different cases where in English, there's static.

Take the word apple for example. Slovenian word for it is "jabolko" and here are the 6 cases:

There is an apple.
There is no apple.
I see an apple.
I give to an apple.
I'm talking about an apple.
I'm talking with an apple.

And Slovenian equivalent:
To je jabolko.
Jabolka ni.
Vidim jabolko.
Dam jabolku.
Govorim o jabolku.
Govorim z jabolkom.

Something similar happens in German language, just that the prefix announcing the gender of the word (die, der or das) changes.

Another interesting thing in Slovenian language (which is a really rare feature in languages) is the dual. Most languages only know singular and plural. In English, the only thing you have to do to announce plural is add s to the end of your word, (es in cases where the word ends on s or i in very rare cases like radius - radii). In Slovenian, the word actually changes depending on the number.

In English:

1 cat.
2 cats.
3 cats.
4 cats.
5 cats.

In Slovenian:

1 mačka.
2 mački.
3 mačke.
4 mačke.
5 mačk. (-0 = the so called "empty ending").

There are tons of things I could go on and on about.

The only aspect of the English language that is more complex then most other languages is the amount and use of tenses. It's likely some of you don't even know you have 12 of them. Slovenian and German are fine with only 4 and one being used very rarely.

 

[Notebook]

My hovercraft is full of eels.

N.

 

[Belisarius]

1)One small error: We would say "quite a" not "a quite." But for most other modifiers that you could use in that sentence, the word order you used would be correct (you could say "a really simple language," "a very simple language," "a mind-numbingly simple language," etc.)

2) In American English we have following vowels... [Exposition] So American English has, as a back-of-the-envelope count, between 13 and 18 vowels.

3) Another interesting thing in Slovenian language (which is a really rare feature in languages) is the dual. Most languages only know singular and plural.

4) There are tons of things I could go on and on about.

5) The only aspect of the English language that is more complex then most other languages is the amount and use of tenses. It's likely some of you don't even know you have 12 of them. Slovenian and German are fine with only 4 and one being used very rarely.

1) In UK English "a quite simple language" is OK. I imagine that's what cjp, being a Dutchman, learned.

2) It's mad, isn't it? With so many dialects and manners of pronouncing words even in standard UK or US English (not to mention Australian, Canadian, etc) there's no way to give a definitive answer on how many phonemes we have. Fortunately, most people learning English have particular problems (like "peel"/"pill" that we mentioned above) and they can be addressed directly.

I love the "I have the sheets!" from the Spanish teacher. That's one I get all the time, along with "going to the beach", which comes out a bit funny for Spanish speakers.

3) Slovenian seems really tough regarding number agreement with nouns. Japanese is a little bit like that, too. Neither verbs nor nouns have to agree for number, so there's no plural form for nouns, but numbers themselves have to go with particles called counters which are different depending on the thing you're counting. That's the really tough part of Japanese, IMO.

4) Me too, if nobody stops me.

5) Strictly, English only has two tenses, past and present. Then it has things called aspect (progressive, perfect and simple) and voice (active and passive).
If you admit "will/won't + verb" as a future tense - which it isn't, but what the heck - you get 12 or so. But nobody says anything like "The report has been being written", so you can chuck out three right there and call it 9.

And BTW, I'm Irish by nationality but British by upbringing/education and I count as a Brit in this case. I'm one of those Brits who says
"I's 'o'h'e today van i' was yes'erday"

 

[RisingFury]

Slovenia is a small country with a population of only 2 million, yet we have more dialects then there are in English across the world... and in a way smaller space.


People from the North East would barely understand people from South West.

Hell, even I barely understand them both... and I'm in between.

 

[SiberianTiger]

Slovenia is a small country with a population of only 2 million, yet we have more dialects then there are in English across the world... and in a way smaller space.


People from the North East would barely understand people from South West.

Hell, even I barely understand them both... and I'm in between.

This is amazing, especially in comparison with Russian, which is pretty uniform throughout all the Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Israel and anywhere else it's spoken in.

 

[Jarvitä]

Slovenia is a small country with a population of only 2 million, yet we have more dialects then there are in English across the world... and in a way smaller space.


People from the North East would barely understand people from South West.

Hell, even I barely understand them both... and I'm in between.

Funny that you mention that, I've lived in Slovenia for two years and I've managed to learn the language enough so that people understood me (which wasn't difficult, since our languages aren't all that different), then I moved from the capital to Maribor and I felt like it was a different language alltogether.

Of course, using the official standard Slovenian language gets you laughed at in both cities (although you're still expected to use it in all forms of written communication), so until I was able to master the dialect I found it more comfortable to just use Serbian, which Slovenians are able to understand anyway due to the similarity.

 

[RisingFury]

Ljubljana is the capital city, not Maribor
Maribor is the second largest city.


But yea, slang is another thing worth mentioning in Slovenian language, that isn't anywhere as developed in English.
In English you can find relatively little slang, with words like "wanna", "gonna" and of course the new trend... the "urban" speech and the internet leet-speak.

But if you talk or write in English slang, it won't be as big of a deal as it would be in Slovenian. Let me just show you an example how much slang affects most words in the sentence.
The sentence:
"Yesterday I went to the store and bought a liter of milk."

In the correct Slovenian language:
"Včeraj sem šel v trgovino in kupil liter mleka."

In slang:
"Učeri sm šou u trgovino in kupu litr mleka."

You don't find anywhere near as much slang in English.


Another thing worth pointing out... our alphabet is different from English alphabet. We don't have X, Y, W and Q, but we have Č, Š and Ž. Č sounds kinda like "ch", Š sounds kinda like "sh", but Ž has no equivalent sound in English.

Some other letters you might see are ć and đ, being featured in Croatian language.

The keyboard layout is also a bit different. I have z where you have y, I have š right of p, đ two keys right of p. I have č under p (right of l), ć two keys right and ž three keys right.
The Shift+Num keys are also different, with Shift+2 being ". To get to @, I have to hit Alt Gr+V. To get to { and } I have to hit Alt Gr + b and n, same for [ and ] with keys being f and g.

 

[Quick_Nick]

Ljubljana is the capital city, not Maribor
Maribor is the second largest city.

Reread please. He said from the capital city TO Maribor.
Yeah, I haven't posted anything too relevant to the topic, but I have been reading every post.

 

[Jarvitä]

My hovercraft is full of eels.

N.

I plead incompetence!