News Elon Musk wants to put millions of people on Mars.

RGClark

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Hey... it can take only 6 months, if you ship all those millions on a single flight. :rofl:

It's interesting that Musk claims trips to Mars being cut down to "under a month". That would necessitate some extremely impressive propulsion technology. Not the sort of thing that's likely to be built any time soon, but interesting to hear nontheless.

He has spoken in the past about nuclear propulsion for interplanetary flight.


Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 AM ----------

Engines are not dead weight like the payload, i suppose the math add up somewhere, or so someone think.

On topic, i think that may apply.
Directly or not, the history will judge Musk, not our perceived absurdity of his claims.
2012-07-17-goddard.jpg


Great artwork. Thanks for that.

Bob Clark
 

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Elon Musk to Address Mars Society Convention in Pasadena
posted Jul 20, 2012 10:05 AM by Mars Society - PR [ updated Jul 21, 2012 1:13 PM ]
The Mars Society is very pleased to announce that SpaceX Founder and CEO Elon Musk will address the 15th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Pasadena, California, on Saturday, August 4th during the organization's evening banquet.
http://www.marssociety.org/home/press/announcements/elonmusktoaddressmarssocietyconventioninpasadena

Bob Clark
 

Urwumpe

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Those who can't build rockets criticize the dreams of those who at least try.

Would be more true, if going to Mars would at least be about building rockets. Astronautics is maybe just 10% of the challenge. Logistics, economics and politics are the majority of problems.
 

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Would be more true, if going to Mars would at least be about building rockets. Astronautics is maybe just 10% of the challenge. Logistics, economics and politics are the majority of problems.

I agree, getting them there is only a small part what is required to make it work. He's going to have to have a lot of other companies in with him on it.
 
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I agree, getting them there is only a small part what is required to make it work. He's going to have to have a lot of other companies in with him on it.

Also, how much money can he cut from the plan? If going to the moon NASA style costs already trillions in R&D, how much money could Musk actually save before hitting the bottom? It is not like private spaceflight is much cheaper than public spaceflight, it could even currently still be more expensive.
 

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I think yes, if he can bring the price to LEO down to the $100/kg range.

Bob Clark

"If he can bring the price to LEO down to the $100/kg range, he can..."

...cure cancer with his tears.
...count to infinity twice.
...defeat Chuck Norris in monopoly.
...reincarnate Elvis.
...gain energy by repeated fusing and splitting of iron atoms.
...tell if Schröderings cat is dead or alive
...prove that NP=P.
 

RGClark

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"If he can bring the price to LEO down to the $100/kg range, he can..."

...cure cancer with his tears.
...count to infinity twice.
...defeat Chuck Norris in monopoly.
...reincarnate Elvis.
...gain energy by repeated fusing and splitting of iron atoms.
...tell if Schröderings cat is dead or alive
...prove that NP=P.

The rest of those are funny, but I don't get the Chuck Norris one.

Bob Clark
 

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The rest of those are funny, but I don't get the Chuck Norris one.

Is the anticlimax in a set of "if something barely possible today is suddenly possible, the person who achieved this can also do other things that are impossible or barely possible today".

Like Santiano performing on Wacken Open Air. Another example of the Chewbacca paradox. It makes no sense.
 

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Hi everybody! This is my very first post on the Orbiter forum, I have been playing Orbiter off and on now for the past 8 years or so, never had enough time to get real good at it but as an old retired guy I have some time to actually start learning the ins and outs of orbital mechanics.
What makes Elon Musk and SpaceX different from the rest of the space industry is that Musk in not in this to get rich, he wants to save the world and drag us kicking and screaming to colonize Mars and make us a space-faring species just in case we do kill the planet, which it is looking more and more every day like we have accomplished that feat. He puts his money where his mouth is and he does not care about personal wealth as he demonstrated by signing Warren Buffets pledge to donate half his fortune.

NASA's Space Launch System is like a bad joke to the tune of $38 billion dollars which might fly in 2017 (Riiiight), meanwhile SpaceX has the Falcon Heavy which can boost 53 metric tons into orbit with already flight proven hardware and plans for its first launch in 2013. I have a lot of faith in Elon Musk because not only is he wickedly smart but he surrounds himself with brilliant and talented people and he has no need for money except where it is useful to him.

I actually interviewed for a job with SpaceX at their McGregor Tx test site and they were courteous enough to give me a tour of their Hawthorn Plant, things did not work out and I was not offered the position but I am just fine with that. I have seen what SpaceX is about first hand and even though I am too old and worn out serving my country to be able to participate perhaps I’ll find other ways to be useful. I count myself exceedingly fortunate because as a retired Air Force vet I get to be a full time student and I have a have a front row seat to watching this unfold as I pursue my degree in Space Studies.

http://www.richvillains.com/corporateindustry/elon-musk.html

The SLS: too expensive for exploration?
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1979/1

On the lasting importance of the SpaceX accomplishment.
http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2012/06/on-lasting-importance-of-spacex.html

The SpaceX Falcon Heavy Booster: Why Is It Important?
http://blog.nss.org/?p=3080

Is SpaceX changing the rocket equation?
http://www.airspacemag.com/space-exploration/Visionary-Launchers-Employees.html

And here’s why we need to get our asses off of this planet.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719
 

RGClark

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Is the anticlimax in a set of "if something barely possible today is suddenly possible, the person who achieved this can also do other things that are impossible or barely possible today".

Like Santiano performing on Wacken Open Air. Another example of the Chewbacca paradox. It makes no sense.

No, I don't get the joke of the Chuck Norris one. Why is he hard to beat at monopoly?

Bob Clark
 

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Because it is Chuck Norris.
 

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Elon's a smart guy, he must know that another method of putting
Payload in orbit needs to be developed.

Maybe he's got a Sled Launch, near the equator type of concept.

If you could make simple solid booster push a payload and a 2nd stage
to 3,000 MPH. you would eliminate alot of the cost of a launch.

Equador has high (10,000+) valley's where a launch site could be built
Unless you are talking about a thousand launches a year, I don't see
how you could bring the cost to 100$/kg more like 200-300$ seems more
realistic.

Anyhow Mars is not that good a target for colonization/terraforming.
without a magenetic field, any man made atmosphere would leak away.
Not to mention that you need to live deep caves to avoid UV,Cosmic ray,
Meteorite bombardment (I'll bet that a marble sized iron Piece would get through
the atmosphere if it hit at the right angle).

Titan, while far, looks far more habitable, once you set up a minimum infrastructure.
Ice Can be cut and used in remarkable ways.
 

RGClark

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...
Equador has high (10,000+) valley's where a launch site could be built
Unless you are talking about a thousand launches a year, I don't see
how you could bring the cost to 100$/kg more like 200-300$ seems more
realistic...


I think most space enthusiasts would be happy with that too!

Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

No disagreements until that point. But Elon is no engineer, no magician. Just one better salesman.

It is the case that there are no especially innovative techniques in the Falcon launchers. And it is also the case he is a very good business man.
But the implications of that are that any of the aerospace companies in the world could also cut the development costs of launchers and spacecraft by a factor of 5 to 10 by privately financing their development.
In short, he provided the formula for how space access can become routine.


Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 PM ----------

Because it is Chuck Norris.

Explains everything ...

Bob Clark

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 PM ----------

Hi everybody! This is my very first post on the Orbiter forum, I have been playing Orbiter off and on now for the past 8 years or so, never had enough time to get real good at it but as an old retired guy I have some time to actually start learning the ins and outs of orbital mechanics.

Welcome to the forum.

Bob Clark
 

N_Molson

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Explains everything ...

In this particular case, yes. The fun precisely arises from that fact. But explaining it won't trigger the associated "fun" emotion, sorry to be unable to help you.
 

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It is the case that there are no especially innovative techniques in the Falcon launchers. And it is also the case he is a very good business man.

Not very good, I would rate others in that category. :lol:

But in case of Elon Musk, you can at least be sure: When he invests into a business, it is progressive. Not always successful though.

But the implications of that are that any of the aerospace companies in the world could also cut the development costs of launchers and spacecraft by a factor of 5 to 10 by privately financing their development.
In short, he provided the formula for how space access can become routine.

Wrong, and that can be explained pretty simple: The costs of developing a new vehicle depends on many factors, luck is one of them. Who pays your bills, is a lesser factor. The confidence level, that you aim for, is the more expensive factor: The more you need to test at every level of the development, the more expensive things get, if you also need more complex testing gear, things get expensive.

But if the management, that controls your progress in relation to the funding, is blind and deaf, your costs will explode because corrective measures will be taken too late or not at all. That is not a matter of private vs public. There are private projects especially in bigger companies, that have a life of their own.

Next, what you claim to be a major achievement of SpaceX, is the lack of achievements. They managed to copy others. The rocket is their own design, but all the basic research and technology needed was already there. If you can limit yourself on buying what is already there and only low risk development, you can be very cheap. Chinese companies are great in that detail - they can turn cheapest chinese parts into something that looks like a Stihl chainsaw, but breaks when you use it for cutting wood.

According to the GAO, the Atlas V and Delta IV development costs for both rocket families together had been just 1.6 billion USD. The EELV program costs increased by 85% in the final years, because the commercial satellite launch market collapsed, that was part of the deal for getting the unit costs lower - the unit costs increased by 143% because of the market changes. The actual development costs increased only by 17% in that time, which is pretty harmless.

The $300 million development costs for the Falcon 9 is in that relation not really impressive - and sure not 5 (<$150 millon)- 10 times (<$75 million) less than what was possible by classic cost plus contracts in the EELV context, which emphasize quality over costs.

SpaceX has yet to show that they can also handle medium or high technological risk projects with their internal processes. NASA has been designed in their processes for high technological risk, and should not be compared to SpaceX until SpaceX does the same.
 
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Tommy

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No, I don't get the joke of the Chuck Norris one. Why is he hard to beat at monopoly?

Bob Clark

Because you can't beat Chuck Norris. At anything. Period.

Or so the meme goes. Chuck is the immovable object AND the unstoppable force combined, so to speak - the mythical personification of invincibility.

And now that I've explained it, the joke is no longer funny. :(

As to Elron's predictions - I take them with the same grain of salt I take with EVERY futurist's predictions.

Chances are it will happen - some day. Not nearly as soon as predicted, or I'd have my flying car by now.
 

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"If he can bring the price to LEO down to the $100/kg range, he can..."

...cure cancer with his tears.
...count to infinity twice.
...defeat Chuck Norris in monopoly.
...reincarnate Elvis.
...gain energy by repeated fusing and splitting of iron atoms.
...tell if Schröderings cat is dead or alive
...prove that NP=P.
I hope this is supposed to be taken as a joke, otherwise it would be quite some hyperbole.
Unlikely? Yes. Impossible? No.
 
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