Request Communication MFD

[agentgonzo]

I use one of these two, depending on whether I'm trying to be helpful or not. I remember saying "P as in ptarmigan" over the phone once...

 

[RS-232]

I've left those two statements up there because I think it needs to be explained about ATC actually works.

The big thing about ATC is a concept called the 'sterile cockpit'. ATC are trained to provide this. The key part of a sterile concept is silence. Yes, silence. Once 'clear to land' has been passed to the PF along with the weather there should be no more discussion on the flight deck, no idle chatter, nothing to detract the PF from the landing.
Only if something goes wrong or if the PF requests to be notified about something should the PNF speak up. Crew Resource management applies but otherwise there is silence.

Now, Watch a video of a shuttle landing. How much 'ATC' actually happens? Very little of course because the shuttle doesn't need a landing clearence. It has that when it's given the go for the deorbit burn. Airspace is cleared via a NOTAM and nothing will be allowed on the runway because the shuttle is committed.

From 150,000ft to touchdown very little is said to the crew - again, it's the sterile cockpit idea - the call outs are:

1. Take GPS
2. Take Air Data
3. Take Tacan
4. On energy, approaching the HAC, no change to winds or weather, you are go for nominal chute deploy. (or go for late chute sometimes)
5. On at the 180
6. On at the 90

That's it. From 150,000ft to the ground there are just six pieces of information transmitted from the ground to the crew of the shuttle. Six pieces of information that are not possible to send over teamspeak without some sort of link to the players orbiter session.

Finally, you'll notice that the crew of the shuttle don't listen to ATC, don't talk to ATC and don't care about ATC. They don't need to because once those OMS engines fire they are comitted to a landing. They don't have to conform to a traffic pattern and the area around KSC is reserved airspace.

It's even pointed out above that the ISS Audio is quiet. Yes, because it's not ATC! It's more ham radio with occasional requests for information.

When I say ATC I mean for atmospheric flights obviously. What About comms during launch,docking,EVA,after Re-entry? No Comms? No callouts?

 

[garyw]

What About comms during launch,docking,EVA,after Re-entry? No Comms? No callouts?

launch is just the standard 'Two engine TAL' - not so much ATC as notification of boundaries.

there are NO call outs for docking. It's all handled on board with hand held laser range finders.

EVA doesn't have any call outs. It's just conversation about issues and stages of the work.

As for Re-entry - once the Deorbit burn is done its very quiet.

Have a look on you tube for launches, evas, etc. There really is nothing like ATC for spacecraft.

 

[Urwumpe]

What should be said in favor of the communication: The CAPCOM also reads back the current procedure steps to the crew and ensures that all activities are synchronized. The crew does actually communicate a lot in space, since you are required to NEVER do a checklist alone. But this happens over intercom, without you noticing it in the telemetry. The crew often reads back the current step in the checklist or the current page of the checklist to CAPCOM for synchronization.

So, silence in space does not really exist. but it is otherwise perfectly like Garyw already explained as sterile cockpit. You follow a strict discipline, only very little communication does not follow the trained protocols. And contrary to airliners, you have almost zero reasons for a space ATC.

If you would have a huge and strongly frequented space station, there would be a traffic pattern with some callouts and communication to organized, but not like you have on a small airport.

 

[garyw]

The crew does actually communicate a lot in space, since you are required to NEVER do a checklist alone. But this happens over intercom, without you noticing it in the telemetry. The crew often reads back the current step in the checklist or the current page of the checklist to CAPCOM for synchronization.

True - there is a lot of communication between CDR, PLT & MS2 who is also flight engineer. (I think it's MS2, someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong). Capcom is really there to confirm things like good OMS burns and to advise if the crew have questions about a step.

 

[RS-232]

What should be said in favor of the communication: The CAPCOM also reads back the current procedure steps to the crew and ensures that all activities are synchronized. The crew does actually communicate a lot in space, since you are required to NEVER do a checklist alone. But this happens over intercom, without you noticing it in the telemetry. The crew often reads back the current step in the checklist or the current page of the checklist to CAPCOM for synchronization.

This is exactly what I was trying to say could be done in Teamspeak3 Via a MFD. CAPCOM for earth (FLIGHT,EECOM (XR&DGIV),GNC,TELMU)... Now if we could just get some basic raw telemetry for CAPCOM so they can plot it on their Big screens (Yeah I know I am going to far,i'll stop :leaving

 

[Urwumpe]

True - there is a lot of communication between CDR, PLT & MS2 who is also flight engineer. (I think it's MS2, someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong).

That role can vary along the mission, one MS is doing flight engineer duties during ascent, another does it during reentry. which MS takes the center seat, depends on the qualification, you need special training for becoming flight engineer.

There is no fixed rule which MS has to do which task - only the seats are assigned by role.

Capcom is really there to confirm things like good OMS burns and to advise if the crew have questions about a step.

The CAPCOM does pretty much all communication between crew and ground, the actual flight controllers don't speak directly with the crew. Such confirmations come from the CAPCOM to the crew in situations, in which the telemetry either contains more information about the vehicle state as the crew can see, or in situations in which computers on the ground do post-processing on the telemetry to extract more information, as possible in the spacecraft.

 

[garyw]

That role can vary along the mission, one MS is doing flight engineer duties during ascent, another does it during reentry. which MS takes the center seat, depends on the qualification, you need special training for becoming flight engineer.

Not so, the flight engineer has the same seat for both the ascent and descent. It has never changed in 131 missions. Other seats on the flight deck have changed.

The CAPCOM does pretty much all communication between crew and ground, the actual flight controllers don't speak directly with the crew. Such confirmations come from the CAPCOM to the crew in situations, in which the telemetry either contains more information about the vehicle state as the crew can see, or in situations in which computers on the ground do post-processing on the telemetry to extract more information, as possible in the spacecraft.

Yes, true. My response wasn't as well worded as it could have been. thanks for the correction.

 

[Urwumpe]

Not so, the flight engineer has the same seat for both the ascent and descent. It has never changed in 131 missions. Other seats on the flight deck have changed.

I can't find any rule yet, that this had to be this way, or was just that way.

 

[Cras]

From what I have read, and it mostly comes from a few books that have little stories from astronauts, and a few of those stories they mentioned the flight engineer position on the mission, that MS2 is the flight's engineer, for both launch and re-entry.

 

[zerofay32]

What I have read (collection of stories and books written by astronauts) say that MS/PS 1, 2, 4, 5 can( and do) change seating assignments in regards to launch and entry. The one MS/PS that never changes seats is MS/PS 3. 3 has special duties in case of an abort and gets special training.

EDIT: This shows different seating for launch and entry and is only one example. #1 and 2 are CDR and PLT.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/shuttlemissions/sts121/crew/seating_assignments.html


EDIT2: In regards to MS/PS 3; the important factor is the person sitting in Seat #5. This isn't always going to be MS/PL 3 but the individual will remain in that seat for both launch and entry.