Checklist Questions

[thammond]

Hi,


After reading a lot on the Apollo CM and AGC I decided to jump in with the Apollo 7 scenario.


First off a big thanks to all involved in making this add-on. I haven't even launched yet and I'm blown away with the realism.


Now for the questions. I'm sure there will be more as I go.


I'm currently on the Prime Crew Prelaunch Checklist at about T-1:10:00 and performing the GDC Align checklist procedure. The alignment of FDAI seemed to go according to the checklist. The question is after the alignment is complete the next part of the checklist is to change the P/Y/R on the ASCP to different values and verify that the error needles are off full scale.


When I changed the P/Y/R values on the ACSP, the error needles on the FDAI did not move. They were still centered. Shouldn't the needles move off center when you change values on the ACSP?

 

[kerlix]

It's been awhile but I have an idea.

Are you pushing GDC ALIGN after changing the values? I seem to remember that you need to.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[thammond]

Thanks for the help kerlix,


I checked and neither the Checklist MDF nor the real life checklist instruct to push the GDC Align button after changing the ATT SET R/Y/R to verify full scale err.


Wouldn't pushing the GDC Align button at that point, with different attitude set points, mess up the alignment?

 

[kerlix]

To be honest it's been a few years. But I seem to recall doing that, and then setting the values back to the correct values after verifying the needles moved.

I could be completely wrong because it's been so long. I'm sure Fred or someone else will show up shortly to discuss the correct procedure.

Edit: It's entirely possible that I was just doing it wrong for years ha.

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[meik84]

Smells like a procedural error.
FDAI SCALE - 5/1 or 5/5
FDAI SEL - 1 or 2
FDAI SOURCE - ATT SET (not GDC)
ATT SET - GDC (not IMU)
That's enough for attitude error display GDC vs. ASCP. If that's not working, it's power, i.e.:
FDAI/GPI PWR - BOTH
LOGIC 2/3 PWR - ON
ELEC PWR - GDC/ECA
Still no joy? Check the cbs on panel 8, especially those in the first 3 rows from above with STABILIZATION CONTROL SYSTEM on them.
Still not working? Check the EPS GROUP cbs on panel 229. All of them have to be in.
No success still? The only thing left is no power on both main busses. Check via the voltmeter and its associated select switch on panel 3. Ground power gets disconnected about that time and if you work really slow you'll run into it.

 

[thammond]

Thanks meik84.

I wouldn't be surprised that I did something wrong, but can't seem to figure out what. I checked through your list and everything was set as you listed it and I appear to have power. I will be gone for the weekend, but will try going through your list once again when I get back to see if I missed something.

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:02 PM ----------

The next step after align and full scale err checks of FDAI 1 & FDAI 2 doesn't seem right either.


So after completing the full scale err check on FDAI 2, the next step is to set FDAI SEL to 1 and verify that "ind same as FDAI 2"


So my results at this point is the ball on FDAI 1 looks normal like its reading P/Y/R all at 0 and all the yellow needles centered. FDAI 2 however appears like there is no power to it. The ball is skewed in all axes and the yellow needles are all at full scale err.

 

[meik84]

So my results at this point is the ball on FDAI 1 looks normal like its reading P/Y/R all at 0 and all the yellow needles centered. FDAI 2 however appears like there is no power to it. The ball is skewed in all axes and the yellow needles are all at full scale err.

I'd rather say that FDAI 1 has no power and FDAI 2 is showing the angles of not fully aligned GDCs. When switching FDAI SEL from 1 to 2 (not 1/2!) and vice versa, both have to show the same, as the source remains the same. If not, there has to be a problem with power. One thing that comes to my mind that we haven't checked before is if there is power on both AC busses. That might happen when you mess something up during the standby inverter check.

 

[indy91]

In my big SCS overhaul a few months ago I did remove the "power off" flag from the CSM FDAIs, as only the LM FDAIs had that one. So if a FDAI is without power it will simply go to all zeros, needles and attitude indication, but no power off flag. I think Meik has the right ideas, a "skewed" FDAI doesn't sound so bad, as it should show 168°/81°/355° as the attitude and full scale high on the needles. I have tested the G&C Verification procedure from the checklist and it seems to work right. I guess it is possible that you have a AC1 problem, that would disable most of the FDAI 1 functions. You can check if you have AC power with the AC indicator on the lower right of panel 3. And the only relevant circuit breaker for AC1 power to the FDAI is the SCS AC1 breaker (not TVC AC1), top left on panel 8.

 

[thammond]

Thanks everyone for the help. I was reading the FDAI's incorrectly. I assumed the skewed FDAI's were a no power situation when in reality it was showing the current setting of the ASCP.

Now that I understand that correctly, I went back through all checklist items and noted that everything checked out correctly.

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 PM ----------

I think there may be a typo in the Prime Crew Prelaunch Checklist.

It's in the Gimbal Drive & Trim Check section of the checklist. That portion is broken down into sections. The 1st is titled Initialization, the 2nd is titled Prim TVC Check. Should it be Trim TVS Check?

 

[meik84]

In my big SCS overhaul a few months ago I did remove the "power off" flag from the CSM FDAIs, as only the LM FDAIs had that one.

Jupp, that confused me at first, too. But looking in the schematic showed that it was 100% correct, so kudos from me for the whole thing.:thumbup:

So if a FDAI is without power it will simply go to all zeros, needles and attitude indication

That's one thing I didn't get: from my understanding of all the wiring, the ball should just freeze, shouldn't it? Deselecting or removing power from it cuts off the servo motors, so it can't go to 0/0/0. This picture https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap08fj/pics/fdai.jpg from old Odyssey just proves that IMHO.

the 2nd is titled Prim TVC Check. Should it be Trim TVS Check?

No. In long words it means "Primary Thrust Vector Control Check", as you test the primary gimbal drive and signal path first and thereafter the secondary in the "Sec TVC Check". TVC has two sets of gimbal motors, clutches and electronics. You can switch to the secondary set by either the TVC GMBL DRIVE switches or the THC clockwise switch (or automatically when the fail sense logic gets triggered and the TVC GMBL DRIVE switches are in AUTO). Just another of those many redundancies and fail-safes regarding the SPS engine.

 

[indy91]

Jupp, that confused me at first, too. But looking in the schematic showed that it was 100% correct, so kudos from me for the whole thing.:thumbup:

Thanks! I'm quite happy with how that update turned out, especially the GDC. Although I made some systems more CPU heavy which is probably not that good, but oh well.

That's one thing I didn't get: from my understanding of all the wiring, the ball should just freeze, shouldn't it? Deselecting or removing power from it cuts off the servo motors, so it can't go to 0/0/0. This picture https://history.nasa.gov/afj/ap08fj/pics/fdai.jpg from old Odyssey just proves that IMHO.

Yeah, you are probably right. I liked that it goes to 0/0/0 when I did the debugging of the SCS update, but now that should probably be changed. It will not make it any easier to see if a FDAI is powered or not though.

 

[meik84]

It will not make it any easier to see if a FDAI is powered or not though.

Guess that's why they introduced the off-flag in the LM-FDAIs. You can see at some points that the LM was designed a little bit later then the CSM and that they had learned some lessons from it. It also shows the immense pressure to get at least the CSM to fly, so that such minor improvements couldn't be considered anymore.

 

[thammond]

Well the 1st attempt at launching Apollo 7 did not go to well.


Somewhere around T-20:00 as I was progressing through the checklist items, some of the items to perform looked familiar and not quite right. I looked up at the title of the checklist and realized I was working on the backup crew prelaunch checks. Not sure how I got back onto that checklist? At this point I switched the checklist to the launch prep checklist. But I probably did something wrong here before I realized what I was doing that doomed the launch.


Any ways at about T-15:00 as I was progressing along through the launch prep checklist, I heard a noise that sounded like a rocket engine. I switched to an external view of the rocket and found the rocket lying horizontal on the ground and slowing rotating into the ground.


So it's back to the beginning and try it again. What is supposed to be the norm for switching between different checklists (so I can tell if things are progressing normally or not). In one case it advanced to the next checklist automatically when I completed a checklist. In another case it did not switch automatically and I had to select the next checklist. And finally it moved me back to a previous checklist

 

[indy91]

As for the checklist, the Checklist MFD will actually switch over from one checklist to the next automatically, it should do this from prelaunch to splashdown without ever having to go manually through the menu. This isn't communicated very well by the MFD though. After the backup and prime crew prelaunch checklists it will just say "current checklist has no more items" or so and then sits there until the time has come for the next checklist (boost checklist starts at T-20min). So on your next attempt you can just trust that it will do it automatically.

I think I had it in the past as well that I ended up in the backup crew checklist again when I manually switched around checklists. Not sure what is causing this. The Checklist MFD coding is rather complicated, but I can look into it. And the confusion about automatic/manual selection of the next checklist should probably be solved by making it switch automatically to the next checklist immediately, and then just let it wait there for the next time (e.g. the T-20min).

The engine sound and Saturn falling over is quite strange. One thing that really should be changed is that you can fire the main engines of the Saturn IB and V by pressing "+", so the normal way in Orbiter to fire the main engines. Maybe you accidentally pressed some key that fired the engine. Or maybe from the throttle lever of a connected joystick. I haven't found any specific event in the code at T-15min that could be responsible, but I will go through a Apollo 7 prelaunch to see if it happens to me as well. And the falling over might be caused by the engine firing and the finicky touchdown points in Orbiter 2016. A sudden framerate drop might also contribute to this. Are you using the latest versions of NASSP Beta and Orbiter Beta? The biggest issues with the touchdown points should be fixed already in versions from the last year or so.

 

[thammond]

Thanks for the info about the checklists, it's good to know to just wait until the checklist switches.


As for the latest NASSP/Orbiter Beta's. I installed both about 1-2 months ago from the latest builds at that time. I haven't checked since the installation if either has been updated. I will double check that.


Thinking back I think the noises started about the time I was changing some of the CSM RCS switches during the prelaunch checklist. The engine noise was not very loud and the whole stack appeared to be rotating, so I wonder if somehow the RCS rotational engines were firing. Maybe from some incorrect switch settings that I did when the checklist backtracked, from hitting a key inadvertently, or from a joystick incorrect setup. I do have a HOTAS joystick setup with rudder pedals.

 

[indy91]

Ah yes, that sounds likely. The RCS is working on the launchpad (a fairly new feature) and it might be enough to unsettle the Saturn IB, as there are no lateral holddown forces. I don't think a wrong switch selection alone could cause this, probably either the Auto RCS switches on panel 8 or the Direct RCS (ROT CONTR PWR - DIR switches) on panel 1 together with a deflection of the RHC. Auto RCS should be switched off with RCS CMD - Off, but Direct RCS plus full deflection of the RHC plus 10x time acceleration is making the Saturn IB move a little bit for me.

 

[thammond]

I do suspect that my joystick settings may be incorrect. My current settings and hardware are listed below. Any suggestions on what settings if different I should have for the joystick hardware I have?


My Hardware: Thrustmaster Hotus Warthodg and Thrustmaster rudder pedals. The Hotus warthog includes a separate joystick and throttle.


The current Project Apollo Configuration settings are:
RHC/ACA enabled checkbox is checked with the ID set to 0. The checkbox below that "if only the RHC/ACA..." checkbox is also checked.
The Optional toggle joystick button ID is set to 1.
the ACA with throttle slider is checked and the ID is set to 1.
The THC/TTCA enabled checkbox is not checked.

 

[indy91]

I wonder if the rudder pedals are trying to constantly command a roll or something like that. Maybe you could try loading one of the scenarios after launch, activate Direct RCS, and then see if it tries to spin up the CSM?

 

[thammond]

Yes it appears the pedals were constantly commanding a yaw (I think) rotation. I started up the Apollo 11 #6 scenario (Before MCC-2) and as soon as I turned the pause off, the RCS started firing.


I made a quick program with my joystick software and it solved that problem by assigning the rudder pedals to a Z rotation axis. I believe that my joystick software combines my joystick, Hotus, and rudder pedals into 1 device as far as other programs see it. After running that program all the rotation axis seem to be working correctly, pitch and roll to my joystick and yaw to my rudder pedals (I don't have a twist joystick)


Now I'm trying to test out the translation to make sure its working correctly. Should a translation work at this point in the scenario, or is there a better scenario to use for testing translation. I can't seem to get the translation to work with either my joystick/pedals or the keyboard.

 

[indy91]

Hmm, I think in that scenario you just need to switch on the TRANS CONTR PWR on panel 1 and it should work.