Rant Biometric information on Dutch ID card

[cjp]

I see the root problem for opposition against the biometrics is because people don't trust their governments. If you don't trust your existing government, then moving to some other place won't likely change anything....More to the point, you are always going to end up finding problems, you will always be complaining about one thing or another. Don't treat the symptoms, treat the problem.

True, I will continue complaining about things, and it is important to not let it make you crazy. There is no such thing as a perfect country or a completely trustworthy government or a safe place to live, but there is 'better' and 'worse'. Right now, I have only a few years to choose whether I go for the easy way and accept the 'worse', or do some effort to go for 'better'.

How do you define biometric information? Is a printed photo acceptable? How about a photo stored on an RFID chip in digital form. That is what we have on our current series N passports. No fingerprint data. They don't state it explicitly but I'm pretty sure the photo is stored centrally.

Some piece of information that is almost-uniquely linked to my body, and which is suitable for automated searching in the direction information -> body (e.g. we have a fingerprint, let's see to which of these millions of people it belongs). With photos this was traditionally impossible, but with improving facial identification software this becomes more of an issue.

I don't have a problem with RFID anymore, as long as it can not be read without my consent. I can take my own measures for this (tin foil :lol.

A massive post WWII immigration program (including large numbers of Dutch) has ensured that not only is the food good and the women beautiful, but there is plenty of variety in both

You consider Dutch food to be an improvement? It may be healthy, but we don't really have a high-standing culinary tradition. It might be better than English food though.

To Cjp: if you're serious, go to Mexico, sneak across the US border and become an illegal immigrant. Then have a child in the US as fast as possible.

LOL, most 'native' Americans (ehm, I mean, people who descend from people who immigrated three or four generations ago) don't appreciate that, do they? Besides, with all the border control on the Mexican side, wouldn't Canada be a better option?

Biometrics would just be the tip of the iceberg, a system of that scope would obviously be rigged to include political viewpoints gained by web surfing habits and contributions, financial status, employment, consumer records, etc. Stuff that's already in corporate databases for sale to marketing companies, linking them together would be cake. Nobody deserves that kind of power, governments least of all.

That is exactly what is the case here. I'm already irritated for years by the lack of proven privacy in electronic payment methods and the number of CCTV cameras, but recently things have worsened at an incredible rate, e.g. when it comes to Internet tapping, the new ticket system for public transportation, and compulsory identification cards. If things continue at this rate, I know where I don't want to be.

 

[Urwumpe]

You are innocent until proven guilty. That's a standard that's been around since what, the Magna Carta?

Much older: ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat.

"The burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies."

Yes, and this is because governments are not trustworthy.

Oh, you must be able to trust your government many times, otherwise you can't delegate work to it at all. But trust has to be earned and you should have the right to control the actions of the government any time and unasked. How else could you make sure that the government is really trustworthy? When you find out that you can't trust the government in a situation in which you relied on it, you are deep in trouble.

The thing is also not a matter of trust, it is also a matter of economics: Why give the government the information about me, if the government does not need it and giving it the government only opens chances for abuse?

Fingerprints were discovered on the scene.
The police compares them to the database of fingerprints, until a match is found.

Especially: Make this dirty, partial fingerprints. When reading finger prints, most people think of clean easily visible lines, but the truth is, that you often have no complete fingerprints at all, and the fingerprints you get are often on surfaces, that are not accepting fingerprints well.

 

[Quick_Nick]

I had to give my fingerprints to get a learner's driving permit... not a big deal. (at least for me)

 

[Ghostrider]

I'll try to find some psychic paper on eBay. As long as I don't run into any psychic-trained Torchwood personnel I should be fine.

 

[Moonwalker]

There is no such thing as a perfect country or a completely trustworthy government or a safe place to live, but there is 'better' and 'worse'.

Well, it depends. Nothing of course is percfect, nor is it ever possible to satisfy a whole nation/humankind because humans are luckily different. But still, other than you and many Germans for example, I completely trust my government/governing parties. Otherwise I wouldn't elect. They do a good job, especially in respond to the crisis. Of course there are many who think a different way, who criticise parties on a lot of things. There is also a lot of disenchantment with politics. But that's democracy. I'm basically satisfied with my country and its politics. And that's the most important thing for me, especially because I'm able to elect them, which I do and already did for the big election on sunday (postal voting, as usual).

PS: Some Germans here certainly don't like to hear/read it but I'm hoping for black-yellow on sunday

 

[Urwumpe]

PS: Some Germans here certainly don't like to hear/read it but I'm hoping for black-yellow on sunday

You are damn right about it. :lol:

But unless something strange happens, we will either get a Black-Yellow minority government (conservatives + market liberals) or a reprise of the great coalition we have now (conservatives + social democrats). Black and Yellow will never, not even with the absurdities of the German election process and tactical voting, get enough seats in parliament to have the majority.

A great result for democracy IMHO... maybe the party politicians then start doing real work and try to convince other politicians, instead of relying on the totalitarian tools for mind control, which you have in the German political system (For example you need just 5% of the members of parliament or a single fraction to make a vote no longer secret and anonymous).

And I know that some people will call me crazy and dreaming, but I hope for the Pirate Party jumping over the 5% limit.

 

[insanity]

You are damn right about it. :lol:

But unless something strange happens, we will either get a Black-Yellow minority government (conservatives + market liberals) or a reprise of the great coalition we have now (conservatives + social democrats). Black and Yellow will never, not even with the absurdities of the German election process and tactical voting, get enough seats in parliament to have the majority.

And I know that some people will call me crazy and dreaming, but I hope for the Pirate Party jumping over the 5% limit.

I'm betting on a Black and Yellow minority (and even though I'm not German, I was hoping for a Christmas Coalition (Red and Green)). Isn't this the last year in which there can be seats added to the Parliament by virtue of election results?

Also, I'll be pulling for the Pirate Party to steal votes from Die Linke.

 

[Moonwalker]

And I know that some people will call me crazy and dreaming, but I hope for the Pirate Party jumping over the 5% limit.

The pirates certainly get many loyalists. There are a lot of people who think that their civil rights is in danger.

I personally don't call those loyalists crazy. In a democracy, everybody who has the right to elect can elect whatever he/she wants. You decide. I'm glad to live and participate in democracy and I'm glad to live in 2009, and not 1009 or 9

 

[Urwumpe]

The pirates certainly get many loyalists. There are a lot of people who think that their civil rights is in danger.

Yes, but the pirate party has only little differences in their position to the green party, which currently got more voters by that fear. But the pirate party learned quickly during the election campaign, which I approve. They now at least look and sound like a professional party.

I personally don't call those loyalists crazy. In a democracy, everybody who has the right to elect can elect whatever he/she wants. You decide. I'm glad to live and participate in democracy and I'm glad to live in 2009, and not 1009 or 9

Well, in 1009, I would have known a few good ways to deal with the criminality of the NPD... Charlemagne knew how to deal with the trouble-makers from the east...

 

[Eagle]

Honestly I have few problems with biometric identification cards. The best purpose of identification is that you are who you say you are and that nobody else can pretend otherwise.

Now, actually providing your identification should happen only when its absolutely required that you prove you are you (e.g. voting, getting a loan, when arrested and other important legal stuff).

Your identity is who you are, not what documents you carry on yourself. The reason I'm kinda positive about biometric info is that if you have papers with no identifying information the question is if you have papers or not, not if you are the person those papers represent. Also if the system is set up correctly actually having the document on yourself isn't important; you could use your physical biometrics to identify yourself alone.

So that's my take, of course in the real world the actual implementation matters more than the theoretical benefits.

 

[movieman]

Since when cops see citizens as potential criminals?

When they switched from prevention of crime to detection of crime. In the 50s, most police work in the UK involved patrolling the neighbourhood you lived in to deter people from committing crimes and catch those who were doing so. Since then the British police have increasingly moved towards clearing up crimes after they occur, which is rapidly turning them from your friendly neighbourhood 'Bobby' who knows you're not a crook because he lives down the street to what effectively amounts to an occupying army.

Can they pick you off the street with no reason an interrogate you at their leisure?

Anyone in the UK, traditionally the bastion of personal liberty, can now be picked up off the street and held without charge for six weeks.

Think about that: sure, today the public still have enough power to prevent such blatant abuses of power, but it doesn't take long before anyone who disagrees with the government can quite legally be 'disappeared' for months without any evidence of wrong-doing, causing immense distress to their family, probably costing them their job, and leaving a black mark on their record for the rest of their life.

And remember, this is the government who used 'anti-terrorist' legislation to confiscate money from Icelandic banks when they were going bust.

 

[Moonwalker]

Well, in 1009, I would have known a few good ways to deal with the criminality of the NPD... Charlemagne knew how to deal with the trouble-makers from the east...

I'm not sure if violence is the right way.

 

[Urwumpe]

I'm not sure if violence is the right way.

You can't call the Massacre of Verden violence. That was a real kick and good for laughs and lashings of the old ultraviolence. :rofl:

And "ultraviolence" brings us slowly back to the topic again...sort of.

 

[cjp]

When they switched from prevention of crime to detection of crime. In the 50s, most police work in the UK involved patrolling the neighbourhood you lived in to deter people from committing crimes and catch those who were doing so. Since then the British police have increasingly moved towards clearing up crimes after they occur, which is rapidly turning them from your friendly neighbourhood 'Bobby' who knows you're not a crook because he lives down the street to what effectively amounts to an occupying army.

I don't, in general, have a problem with the friendly neighbourhood 'Bobby'. I do, however, have a problem with CCTV cameras which are supposed to do the same thing.

Anyone in the UK, traditionally the bastion of personal liberty, can now be picked up off the street and held without charge for six weeks.

Think about that: sure, today the public still have enough power to prevent such blatant abuses of power, but it doesn't take long before anyone who disagrees with the government can quite legally be 'disappeared' for months without any evidence of wrong-doing, causing immense distress to their family, probably costing them their job, and leaving a black mark on their record for the rest of their life.

And remember, this is the government who used 'anti-terrorist' legislation to confiscate money from Icelandic banks when they were going bust.

This kind of confirms my image of the UK. It's on my "don't want to live there" list.

I don't trust UK politicians. When talking about Dutch politicians, I think they are generally speaking not as evil or corrupt as in most other countries, but they are very careless and naive. This makes them unsuitable as guards of my personal information. So, in a sense, I don't trust them either, but in a different way.

Some people say that every country receives the government it deserves. And in fact I do believe that most Dutch people deserve this government. The government really represents the main-stream "I have nothing to hide" atmosphere very well. But that doesn't do justice to that small minority that wants a different system.

About my migration plans: I decided that I should let my emotions cool down a bit before making a final decision. In the mean time, I'll gather some information about immigration requirements and job opportunities, so that I don't lose any time.

Jordan is probably the best location in the middle east, but I don't see where it has unique advantages over European locations like Norway. Except maybe it's more independent from the EU and the US, but I'm not even sure about that.

 

[lennartsmit]

I have to get a new passport soon!
This is one of the latest examples of the Dutch government not respecting privacy.
This is another example: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2009/09/police_tapped_26000_phones_las.php

Maybe a little far going but this passport could be used by idiot politicians as Geert Wilders, who base they're ideas on who stays and goes in Holland by the looks and religion of people.
http://www.geertwilders.nl/

 

[Moonwalker]

This is another example: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2009/09/police_tapped_26000_phones_las.php

As long as one doesn't know the cases, who got tapped and why, it is not possible to pass a judgement on the Dutch government and judicial system. An important question to me is if the allegedly numbers of the UK and US are true. I honestly can't imagine that a country like the US, with a population almost 19 times as much as the Dutch population, taps 12 times less phones. Guess which country does have the higher crime numbers...

Last but not least, the press, journalists, do babble and write a lot. Especially when its about numbers.

 

[movieman]

I don't, in general, have a problem with the friendly neighbourhood 'Bobby'. I do, however, have a problem with CCTV cameras which are supposed to do the same thing.

That was kind of my point. The 'Bobby' generally knew the community, knew who was crooked and who wasn't, and ignored minor indiscretions by the decent people while protecting them from the crooks. Today's British cop racing to the scene in a car is more like a Marine on a 'search and destroy' mission who has no idea who the bad guys are and consequently treats everyone like a criminal... worse than that, the 'human rights' culture actually prevents them from treating the decent people like they're decent people, because they might offend a criminal in the process.

This kind of confirms my image of the UK. It's on my "don't want to live there" list.

That's why I left; I honestly think that if the Tories don't make major changes when they win the election next year then there's likely to be a civil war in the next decade or so. And since the Tories can't make major changes without leaving the EU, optimism is not easy to come by.

 

[lennartsmit]

Last but not least, the press, journalists, do babble and write a lot. Especially when its about numbers.

This was, as it states, said by Ernst Hirsch Ballin, our minister of justice.

I think the high number is caused by the seperation between inteligence service AIVD (kind of FBI) and normal police. In the US, telephone-taps would be done by the FBI or CIA instead of normal police (I think).

 

[dansteph]

Well, imho states never had the need for biometric data to commit genocides.
Statistics say that in our country you have much more chance to be the victim of an unarrested criminal. I'm not really affraid about this yet.

Now I would be concerned about any mention of religion, race, political opinion, being member of one group or another etc., this may be dangerous if the states fall in bad hands.

Dan

 

[movieman]

Well, imho states never had the need for biometric data to commit genocides.

But it certainly makes their job much easier.

Now I would be concerned about any mention of religion, race, political opinion, being member of one group or another etc., this may be dangerous if the states fall in bad hands.

Now imagine a neo-Nazi party like the BNP in Britain (who now have seats in the European Parliament) gaining power with millions of surveilance cameras, total Internet surveillance, instant access to everyone's DNA, fingerprints, photos, etc, etc and complete control over their life through ID cards, which are intended to control who can work, who can travel, etc. Then add in laws allowing them to lock up anyone without charge for weeks at a time.

If that doesn't scare you, you aren't thinking hard enough about exactly what powers the people of Europe are handing over and who you're handing it too. Going from a government of happy, fluffy bunnies to a government of Nazi thugs takes only a few hours of voting.